LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Drunkenheyna:

Thank you for your compliment on the video. I made it. In fact, I’m the one who was demonstrating the hill bounding (Arthur used to call me teasingly “the best hill bounder”) though I’m a bit out of shape at the moment. I had to argue with the use of my wife who also demonstrated various exercises because, he said, she doesn’t look line an athlete. I argued that this is the best way to show that even an ordinary runner (she’s a 3:47 marathon runner) can perform these exercises and get benefit. He agreed in the end. Besides, she has a better form (particularly ankle flexion and knee lift) than me.

This is a bit off the original topic so my apology to Snookie; I’d like to spend a bit to explain this hill training because it is a bit confusing and, as Dream machine pointed out, Lydiard really didn’t explain things too clearly. In fact, I think he made it even more confusing at some point.

It wasn’t until very late (perhaps late 80s) that he prescribed 3 distinct exercises for different purposes. There are 3 exercises: (1) steep hill running, (2) hill bounding and (3) hill springing. In most of his clinics (even way back in the 80s), he would talk mainly about bounding and springing (though in the beginning it was more or less “in-between”). Lydiard used hill training in mainly two separate purposes: (1) transition from conditioning to track work and (2) speed development, technique work, strength training (plyometroics). Unfortunately he never, to my knowledge, explained differences well enough to the audience.

We have written a script for the Lydiard training video—it will be a 3-part series (approximately 20-minute each) of explaining sequentially how to apply the entire Lydiard program. I had a difficult time deciding how to explain the hill training phase and in the end decided just touch it rather lightly in these videos; but make a hill training video separately and explain in more detail. What you saw at the last year’s clinic is only a demo tape. We discussed the possibility of selling that video as-is to start the process of immediate fund-raising but I voted against it because, without fully explaining, it could potentially create even more confusion. We would explain how the original hill training, fondly known as “circuit”, was exercised as an entire routine and how Lydiard had evolved into bounding/springing exercises.

Glenn McCarthy, a very good high school coach from Colorado, learnt the original hill training first hand from Lydiard when he was helping Lydiard as an interpreter in Venezuela—that would be steep hill running where you would more or less “run” up the hill with the exaggerated knee lift and “snap” in your ankle. I actually saw the best demonstration in a documentary of Toshihiko Seko in 1983, preparing for the LA Olympic marathon. He was training in NZ and, going up One Tree Hill, he would move slowly (slow forward momentum) and, what I call, “spending extra half a second on your foot at each foot strike”) with good high knee lift. This is what I call “original Lydiard hill exercise” as Ray Puckett, one of the original runners, showed it to me. Now Peter Snell showed it to me slightly different. He emphasized “kicking” or back leg extension a bit more. Either way, the idea is not to run “fast” up the hill, but “hard”.

HRE did a great job explaining bounding/springing “feel” to us but one thing is that the exercise is completely different from actual “skipping” movement. In fact, it is very important you land on the “alternate” foot because that really creates plyometric effect. If I’m not mistaken, Dr. Michael Yessis explained it as a “coil effect” of the Achilles tendon somewhere??? I have noticed that majority of distance runners, I’ve seen this more so in America though nothing derogatory intended, cannot perform this exercise well. They, more often than not, slide into skipping exercise. I’ve tried to introduce skipping exercise as an introduction but, to me, that tend to confuse them even more because they are so much more comfortable with skipping, yet, the goal is not skipping. I found it better to introduce first just simply running uphill; then tell them to lengthen the strides—even place some objects as a target; then gradually lengthen their strides longer and longer until they actually “bound”. As HRE explained, the emphasis is back-leg extension and knee lift. Lydiard always said “like a deer going over the fence.”

Hill springing is more or less the same as bounding except the accent is “higher”. Lydiard said the emphasis is the ankle flexibility—like a ballet dancer. Suppleness and springiness comes from this type of exercise. I would suggest using shorter but more steep hill for this exercise than bounding. At some other thread, somebody started the debate, because I was wearing spike shoes for the video, whether Lydiard “recommends” performing these exercises in spikes or not. The idea is “ankle flexibility”. If you wear spike shoes with minimal heel lift, your heel would come down that much further and be beneficial. Of course, if you do the exercise on the road, you shouldn’t (no, really!) and if you have a hard time striding down the hill with spike shoes, you shouldn’t. Nothing is hard-written on the rock, just understand the purpose of it and apply your best common sense. As with bounding, I would more opt to recommend starting with smaller steps to get the feel for it. Skipping is just fine and you’ll get the idea but eventually you need to master the movement of “jumping up on one leg and landing on the alternate leg” so whichever makes you easy to get there would be fine. I’d say; think of you going up the hill slow-motion (like kids always do); you naturally take a longer (or higher) leap because that way it takes longer till you land (though the speed of gravity will not change!). Forget the knee lift and straight back-leg first; just get the feel for the movement. Then introduce more accurate technique with knee lift, back-leg extension and straight ankle “snap” or “whip”.

The latter two exercises are excellent for speed development. You don’t have to limit the use of these exercises only for a transition; in fact, reportedly, Pekka Vasala did bounding up until a few weeks before the Olympic 1500m in Munich. I would not, however, recommend jumping into these straight after marathon conditioning unless you’d been running lots of hilly courses. These are very demanding—a discount ticket to injuries. My rule of thumb is to start with longer and slower exercise (steep hill running) and gradually move into shorter faster exercise (springing). The shorter and faster your race is (800 or 1500m), the more benefit you’re gain from springing and bounding. Doesn’t mean you don’t get anything from them if you’re a marathon runner; and vice versa.

With the same reason I mentioned above (or simply procrastinating???), I have dragged the idea of adding a clip of hill training video at the website (gotta do some self-promotion so, again, it’s

www.fivecircles.org

), but I will include what I call a “tease” of about 10 seconds or so just to give the idea in the next month or so, I promise! Please do note, however, this is just one of the exercises and doesn’t mean Lydiard’s original runners were doing it up the 800m up hill 6 days a week!

Here’s another misleading information; what do you do in between. Originally Lydiard recommended leg-speed exercise or some sprint work. Remember, however, when he recommended that, the hill circuit was still quite substantial. They weren’t mucking about; they were doing something like 12 miles just the hill circuit alone. If you do bounding or springing, I would expect the total mileage, which is not as important as many people think, would come down. Bounding and springing would be more or less glorified “speed training” and doing more speed work or sprint exercises on other days may be a bit too much. So depending on how much your legs can handle hill exercise and depending on how much overall running you’d be doing during this period, it may pay to have, for example, a long jog one or two days as well as other sprint work.

DougM:

That is the very topic I’m working on the Part II presentation; “Application of the Lydiard Program”. It can be done and Lydiard has actually laid it out in his earlier publication. Ron Daws also adopted it to American collegiate situation and called it “Combination Program”.

Sorry, guys, I took up the entire thread!

Not quite dawn here in NZ so my response maybe slightly sleepy !!!.

If there is a subject on Arthur's training that I am weak in it is this one.

Howvever, here goes.

I am an advocate of the ankle drive, extended 'back' leg brigade. I also emphasis a slight exagerated driving of the arms.

The hill I use is 800m long, but has a really good section that is marked out in 100, 200 , 400 at the start.

For beginners I use 100 to 200 as the work can be quite tiring and part of Arthur's hill work is "form". It is important that the "speed" up the hill is slow and the emphasis on the "power" as you drive off the ankles.

As the athlete becomes more experienced we push the distance out past 400.

Where I do deviate from Arthur is the down hill run.

This would be the most controversial aspect of his work.

I understand the East Germans really questioned him on this.

Also I feel with some athletes the downhill run is not done well (Thay "brake" rather than stride out ... I was a classic at that !!) also some are rather muscular and end up with really sore legs.

So what I do is the fast striding along a flat section at the bottom of the hill.

John Walker only did the uphill section of the programme and the strides on the flat (His legs would not handle the downhill running)

There is so much information here with HRE myself and Nobby (Glen has not chipped in yet)that I feel that all of you should do what John Davies had to do when he started with Arthur.

Arthur took John around the various hills that the guys trained on in Auckland. John watched how each athlete

did the hill work, Arthur said "Okay, John you now go to your hill and work out how you are going to do this workout."

At the time John lived in Tokoroa some 140 miles from Auckland.

Nobby has eluded to this by telling you how Ray Puckett felt the work should be and also Peter Snell.

Hope I have added something relevant here.

As if I haven't said enough...

ronin (did you get this name from Japanese word?):

Use a long (anywhere from 200 up to 800m) relatively steep hill for Steep Hill Running. Shorter (50 to 200m) and more gentle hill for Bounding (you'll know why very quickly!) and shorter yet (30 to 100m) but steeper hill for Springing. If you can get the perfect hill, great. But more often than not, we don't. So we just have to understand what we are trying to do and accomodate with what we've got. One time, when Lydiard was in Japan, a person complained that there's no hill in Tokyo. He pointed out a small hill (about 20m) at a park and said "Use that." I heard that Ron Daws once used a freeway ramp! I'd say parking ramp at a shopping mall is safer. Of course, it's well-known Ron used stairs in a tall building during MN winter.

Trackmasta has the right idea. Use what you've got and be creative. You don't even need to do one particular exercise the entire hill either. If the hill is too long, take a break in the middle and jog about before proceed. As Lydiard told HRE, do what you can within a certain length of time like 20 minutes or 40 minutes or so on. If the hill is short, you'll be doing more repeats.

Good point DougM. Most of the 'old timers" ran for their clubs and raced a lot more than you would think.

Arthur published a "Race Week/non race week" schedule and I know a lot of the guys used that, perticualrly through our winter when there was a lot of Cross Country and Road races.

I have used it too and it is excellent. It is almost a Hard week/ easy week.

I will put it on here later (running out of time this morning.)

The 'guts' of everything though was the maintenance of a long run every week. All year.

After reading two of Lydiard's books, reading several threads and websites on Lydiard and his training philosophy and actually seeing the man speak shortly before he passed away, I think the entire picture is starting to come into focus, thanks in part to this very thread. Thanks to HRE, Nobby and Kim for getting us this info. Keep it coming, guys!!!

This has been a fantastic thread. Thanks to all of you who have taken time to contribute insights and clarify others' understandings.

I think that one of the things that doesn't get mentioned as much as it should is the mental development that should occur when one is building an aerobic base. During this base period, one should be learning to run in a relaxed fashion and cultivate a mindfulness of each present moment. This at first takes concentration, but becomes second-nature after a while. (I suppose it is akin to Zen meditation in this respect.) At first, one notices "hey, my hands are all tensed up" or "my arms are tight" or "my face is all contorted" or whatever. But, through practice, one learns not to will one's self through the run, but to allow the run to flow through you, as you're relaxed. Learning to pay attention to my body and run in a relaxed fashion wasn't anything I learned in HS (in spite of the fact it was there in Lydiard)--another case of understanding only when one gets a bit older.

Then, once one learns to relax through training one's mind during the initial aerobic building phase, and one gets to interval work etc. one learns to relax and let the interval work happen (as opposed to willing yourself through it), as well. (This non-willing has a name in Taoism: Wu-wei.)

Lydiard didn't talk in such Eastern religious terms (correct me if I'm wrong), but it's clear from his writing that he didn't intend the aerobic building to be simply putting on miles and bringing about physiological changes in red blood cells etc. as a result. There is important mental training going on with the below-LT aerobic work. And the ability to be aware and "run relaxed" is something that, when cultivated, is supposed to carry over into intervals and into racing as well.

Those who worked with Lydiard--please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is one thing I take from his writing.

(This isn't intended to refer to Daniels, just to be clear--Without some substantial aerobic work, it's awfully difficult to step onto a track or hills or whatever and do LT work while retaining a properly relaxed and fluid state. This is so obvious as almost not to be worth stating, except for this. It's not simply the absence of physiological changes in the legs that prevent one from doing fluid intervals and LT work. It's also the absence of psychological changes that should occur if one is doing one's aerobic base work properly, that can prevent it.)

Matt

Doug M,

Not that Nobby hasn't covered this, but if you want to asee Lydiard's ideas applied to someone who was going to have multiple or extended racing programs, a good place to look would be at Rob DeCastella's training with Pat Clohessey.

Clohessey is a Lydiard guy. He toured Europe with Arthur's guys in the early 60s. But when he began coaching in Oz many years later found that things had changed and that athletes wanted to be in form for more than just one peak season per year. So he created an adaption of Arthur's ideas that would allow that.

Nobby, I always landed on my alternate foot when I skipped. Was I skipping incorrectly?

Even if one races year-round, the aerobic work is key. To Lydiard's everlasting credit, he stressed that over and over.Regarding multiple peaks per year: To be frank - since we're talking about the general public and not olympic hopefuls - a runner who consistently grows their aerobic plant and judiciously uses races themselves to sharpen will, YEAR-ROUND, be beyond the reach of all of his or her comparably talented but speedwork-happy, peaking-tapering competitors. And the gap will continue to grow year after year.A side point: I think Hadd, for one, did service in noting how "T" workouts, if used prematurely (i.e., before substantial aerobic development is established), are counterproductive. I and a couple of friends followed DRF several years ago as a bible and began to learn about this the hard way. To be fair, similar mistakes can be made following Lydiard (e.g., with 3/4 effort runs).

I wrote a story about Lydiard and Bill Bowerman years ago (http://www.ontherunevents.com/news/0066.sht) and, in it, I mentioned my observation on these men and compared that with eastern thinking of, say, coach Nakamura. Coach Nakamura practiced more openly eastern philosophy such as Zen. I don’t think Lydiard knew much about Zen but, yes, what he was doing actually had a lot in common. What strikes me most is his thinking of development of overall individual. To Lydiard, being a good runner is only one aspect of a whole picture. If you’re not sincere, he’d cut you in no time. I guess one important aspect is enjoyment. Running should be fun. As grumpy as he could sometimes be, Lydiard was always a very fun-loving person. I guess that’s probably one of major reasons why he preferred not to be too explicit with numbers and science. You can argue that that’s still fun; that’s fine. Whatever turns you on. You can also argue that becoming an Olympic champion is not about having “fun”, well!

Kim:

I hear your point on downhill running. Marty Liquori told me that, while he’s a huge believer of (up) hill running, he was one of those great middle distance runners who avoided downhill section. After reviewing my video, Lydiard told me that we should have a downhill part as well. Well, it’s actually already filmed; we need full-scale funding for actual production—I told him that we need to go a step at a time! Lydiard’s original hill circuit is a full-circle whole shebang set of (1) uphill exercise, (2) recovery jog, (3) fast relaxed downhill striding and (4) series of what Lydiard called “windsprints” at the bottom. The whole exercise will get you prepared for demanding “quality” track schedule. Downhill is an excellent “eccentric” resistance exercise as well as stretching out. If you choose not to do it due to variety of reasons (such as what Kim encountered), you need to accommodate that portion of exercise. Jonas Holdeman, one of enthusiastic Foundation staffs, asked me one time that, due to heavy rain, downhill section is too slippery and he didn’t feel safe to perform “downhill striding”. I suggested to him that it’s perfectly fine (to avoid it) but he should accommodate it with striding on the flat; exactly as Kim Stevenson did. This is why, if you can find a perfect circuit, it’s better to have the downhill section slightly less steep than uphill section. The key is to lean “into the hill” just like skiing, not to lean backward; for this would create more braking action. If you can handle the pounding, this is an excellent exercise for marathon. You DO need to learn to take poundings.

By the way, Kim, what did you mean by “East Germans questioned him”? Did you mean to say that they asked him a lot of questions on this exercise? My understanding was that East Germans adopted this exercise (downhill striding) to their sprinters for quicker leg turn-over.

Left ventricle work. Billet.

What year was this?

With the downhill CNS stuff, I guess you had to say he was

a genius , and had the whole spectrum covered.

Let's talk some on the length of the base phase, which has gotten a lot of mention here. It is here that we seem to have seen a difference between the two theories. I learned early in my coaching that when working with sprinters it was important not to neglect any portion of the training spectrum. If you chose to not include some work (albeit very little) ATP-CP work in the early phases the athlete would have a hard time transitioning to it when necessary later on down the line. I think this is what eventually sold me on Daniels line of thinking. Yes, distance running is different (more similar than maybe we give credit though) than sprinting, and a pure base phase is necessary. But for how long? I think it's very effective to blend in other intensities while still working on a solid foundation of aerobic development (for all those good things like ventricular hypertrophy, elevated hemoglobin, elevated mitochondria, etc). While Daniels SEEMS to only look for a short, exclusive aerobic phase, in looking at that second phase closely you will find an extension of the first phase. It leaves you with a Lydiard-esque base, with some work on getting ready for you harder intensities.

BeamonStreet wrote:

While Daniels SEEMS to only look for a short, exclusive aerobic phase, in looking at that second phase closely you will find an extension of the first phase. It leaves you with a Lydiard-esque base

Even taken together, D's first two phases are at most 12 weeks - too meager to be truly "Lydiard-esque."

Nobby:

That's a terrific article. Thanks for pointing it out (and for writing it)!

Matt

Bug;

I'm positive that Daniels is not saying that a training program needs to be limited to 24 weeks. He states that he organizes it this way because his book is being aimed at an American reader who is probably looking to fit his theories into a scholastic/collegiate season. If you look at his blocks proportionally, now we are seeing that 50% of the work is base work. If you extrapolate it out to a one year buildup to a major peak (easy to do if this is the goal), now it is quite similar to Lydiard

BeamonStreet wrote:

I'm positive that Daniels is not saying that a training program needs to be limited to 24 weeks. He states that he organizes it this way because his book is being aimed at an American reader who is probably looking to fit his theories into a scholastic/collegiate season.

"In figure 8.1 I show four 6-week blocks of training (24 weeks) leading up to the peak period. This is a desirable amount of time to set aside for preparation, but is not necessarily workable within the framework of a school program. School seasons often are more likely to cater to a 12-week program" (DRF 1st ed., pp 127-28).

Also note, Daniels's phase 2 - if counted as part of his "base" - does contain weekly (informal) "I" intensity work, in essential contrast to Lydiard's base.

In skipping, you "jump" off, or take-off, the ground on one foot; and as you come down, you momentarily touch-down on the same foot and then quickly shift your weight on the other foot, or alternate foot on which you will now "jump" off. That's how we skip...or don't we? Or is it just a Japanese way. Of course, we drive on the left side (not "wrong side"!) of the road...as they do in New Zealand.

When you look at the airborne form (of skipping), it is very similar to bounding or springing or whatever else you want to call it (exaggerated "running" action) but the biggest difference is that you don't get as much impact on your landing foot which is the same as "next" take-off foot. In other words, you have a little bit of a “break” on your leg. Whereas in bounding or springing, you don't get much “break” on your leg at all. This way, you'll gain more ballistic action and hence gain more plyometoric effect. Of course, the chance of injuries is that much higher as well so be aware! This is where having completed solid marathon conditioning, including running over hilly courses, to strengthen your muscles and tendons become that much more important.

There has always been much discussion on Seb Coe and Lydiard system. To me, the biggest "similarity" is actually this type of exercise. Lydiard did it on the hill in a form of bounding. Coe did it in the gym in a form of plyometoric exercise (in fact, this is when I first heard of a word, plyometorics). My understanding is that he would jump off a box and, as he lands, he would bounce back up (no hopping or any form of "break") and jump up onto another box. There was a picture illustration of this exercise, they called it "Depth Jump", in a book called "Running for Fitness" written by Seb and Peter Coe. Think of yourself doing this on one foot and, of course, you switch your leg in the air and keep doing it continuously. Now you're doing bounding or springing.

[quote]Nobby wrote:

ronin (did you get this name from Japanese word?):

Use a long (anywhere from 200 up to 800m) relatively steep hill for Steep Hill Running. Shorter (50 to 200m) and more gentle hill for Bounding (you'll know why very quickly!) and shorter yet (30 to 100m) but steeper hill for Springing.

Nobby, yes my nickname is from Japanese word, although I don't have a master :)

Anyway, all exercises are to be done in one session, right? As for the steep hill running- is it supposed to be all out- like sprinting (although hard to imagine on 800m hill), or just running up while concentrating on running form- this time not exaggerated?

I have to admit I cannot remember details about what the East Germans questioned or who I got that info from. However, if I remember rightly, I believe amongst other questions it was about the downhill striding in respect to the "angle" of the down hill and if it was too steep the possibility of injury if the atheltes did not run down the hill correctly.

I do recall that they took the general idea of a "slight" downhill to enhance leg speed.

I have heard Arthur talk about that on few occasions.

I have a copy of the East German Training Manual (I picked it up in the early 80's at a Coaching conference .. Translated to English)so will check it out to see if there are any references there.

Sorry to be so vague.