Hunter is working with better 800-5k times than Rupp at the same ages. In his 20's Rupp was a 10k guy because his finish sucked. Hunter will develop sprinting and better form as he progresses, as he now has a strength coach and has made a lot of progress in arms and torso while running.
doot doot wrote:
I hope Drew nothing but success, but there’s a certain uber-phenom coming up “behind him” who will wear the crown before and probably after him.
Cooper Teare?
hatehatehatehate wrote:
fake news alert wrote:
This is patently false. Everyone in tinman's group is a several time all american. Most have run sub 4 or the equivalent 1500m. They are plenty talented enough.
Drew was never a "nobody" in high school. Drew was going to break 4 in high school no matter who coached him. Tinman doesn't deserve 1/4th of the praise that he gets.
There is no way in hell those Drake dudes were "several time all americans".
Reed Fischer was 9th in the 10k at NCAAs in 2017 (top 16 all american)
50th at NCAA XC in 2016 (top 40 all american)
17th in 10k in 2016 honorable mention all american
so almost 3x all american. Ran 13:48 and 28:47 in college so he was very fast.
Connor Winter ran 3:59 in the mile, 7:51 for 3k, 13:55 for 5k and 8:40 for steeple
10th in 3k indoors in 2016 - all american
33rd in NCAA XC in 2015 - all american
23rd in steeplechase in 2015 - honorable mention all american
24th in NCAA XC in 2014 - all american
I don't know who this Austin guy is
fake news alert wrote:
hatehatehatehate wrote:
There is no way in hell those Drake dudes were "several time all americans".
Reed Fischer was 9th in the 10k at NCAAs in 2017 (top 16 all american)
50th at NCAA XC in 2016 (top 40 all american)
17th in 10k in 2016 honorable mention all american
so almost 3x all american. Ran 13:48 and 28:47 in college so he was very fast.
Connor Winter ran 3:59 in the mile, 7:51 for 3k, 13:55 for 5k and 8:40 for steeple
10th in 3k indoors in 2016 - all american
33rd in NCAA XC in 2015 - all american
23rd in steeplechase in 2015 - honorable mention all american
24th in NCAA XC in 2014 - all american
I don't know who this Austin guy is
2 times (one of which being honorable mention) is not "several" regarding Fischer.
Brogan Austin even moreso.
For someone calling out a statement as being patently false, you turned around and made a patently false statement yourself.
Jakob Ingebritsen
tinmanApologist wrote:
V Trigger wrote:
Why are we still talking about CV training? Schwartz hitches his wagon to academic jargon and studies that most people on this board probably haven't even read, and we act like it's a revolution in training.
My opinion: what Tinman has done with the average athletes he has come across over the years is a testament to his coaching abilities. He called Drew "not that talented" in an interview once. Whether Drew is or not is up for debate, but Tinman has indisputably helped average talent get better. The fact that CV training isn't new isn't really relevant - Tinman doesn't act like his training style is new. The fact that he can articulate the ideas into a workable training plan for a range of people from average high school kid all the way to Drew Hunter is fairly impressive.
Helping an "average athlete" improve is what any good coach does. This isn't remarkable. You could make the same argument about Salazar and Farah.
To all the posters out there who say of Drew Hunter, "He's 22": NO, you math geniuses, HE IS NOT 22, he's 21, as of today.
In September he reaches the ripe old age of 22. Not until September 5th. So do you get it? Not yet? OK, I'll spell it out further:
>>>He's 21.
>>>Twenty-one.
>>>TWENTY-ONE.
>>>Twenty-One-One (in the eyes of anyone with a Hoka shoe contract).
>>>Sometimes twenty-lost, but also sometimes twenty-won.
GOT IT YET, GENIUSES? Let me say it again. Drew Hunter, as of July 29th, 2019, is TWENTY-ONE YEARS OLD, NOT TWENTY-TWO YEARS OLD.
Granted, he's no longer the 18-year-old "kid". He's the 21-year-old "kid", and pretty soon he'll be the 22-year-old "kid". I'm so very, very sorry, poster smd, but Drew Hunter will continue to be referred to as "the kid" for just a little bit longer by some of LetsRun's other posters.
(The "kid" will be TWENTY-TWO when the World Championships roll around, though hell might freeze over by then -- it's so far off for athletes trying to find a way to peak once again in late Sept/early Oct. But, then, hell isn't as hot as Doha, so there is a chance that temps will be still be comfortable in Doha for the World Championships. PEAK weather conditions, even.)
V Trigger wrote:
Helping an "average athlete" improve is what any good coach does. This isn't remarkable. You could make the same argument about Salazar and Farah.
Are we agreeing? I think if you gave the guy 3-4 years in a college program he’d end up with a decent group of distance runners, and I think he’d have a lot of depth on the team. That qualifies him as a good coach. I don’t think he’s going to make a Bekele out of a random kid, but I suspect whoever discovered Bekele just got lucky anyway.
Aged Discriminator wrote: I'm so very, very sorry, poster smd, but Drew Hunter will continue to be referred to as "the kid" for just a little bit longer by some of LetsRun's other posters.
At age 22 (as well as 21), Scott Douglas was every bit a real man, boiling bricks of ramen in a roach-infested rental house in Williamsburg, VA, and patching the soles of his moldy Air Pegasus 3's with shoe-goo while puzzling over the perfect phrasing to put on his application for a medical redshirt (glute strains and shin splints foiled another season, natch) to gain a 5th year of eligibility and continue stalking the English professors with sly looks from under his flaxen bangs, as well surreptitiously pouring out cans of Yeungling in the bathroom sink at parties and refilling them with tap water. I dedicate this run-on to David Brooks.
http://www.scottdouglas.biz/wp-content/uploads/cornwall_0072.jpgtinmanApologist wrote:
V Trigger wrote:
Helping an "average athlete" improve is what any good coach does. This isn't remarkable. You could make the same argument about Salazar and Farah.
Are we agreeing? I think if you gave the guy 3-4 years in a college program he’d end up with a decent group of distance runners, and I think he’d have a lot of depth on the team. That qualifies him as a good coach. I don’t think he’s going to make a Bekele out of a random kid, but I suspect whoever discovered Bekele just got lucky anyway.
My main issue is less with his coaching ability than it is with the borderline personality cult that surrounds his training. My original quibble was with the comment that Hunter will be fine because he's doing a lot of CV training. Really? That's all? Would anyone be just as reassured if we said that he's doing to add in some tempo runs or some workouts at VO2 pace?
He even said in his feature on this website that he thinks most of the coaching profession is misguided for emphasizing 3k and 5k pace in workouts instead of CV. That's arrogant.
V Trigger wrote:
He even said in his feature on this website that he thinks most of the coaching profession is misguided for emphasizing 3k and 5k pace in workouts instead of CV. That's arrogant.
No, that's exactly what he believes in. He is at the forefront of improving the running world overall, but optimizing training methods. He is sharing his knowledge/opinions because he hopes that the coaching world will change and more people train with his philosophies.
He said American runners are being run into the ground with VO2MAX intervals, like 5x1k @3-5k pace, a staple of Daniels for example. He says that it would lead to quick improvements in the first 5-6 weeks, but then stagnation and burn-out and race performances start to suffer. Some coaches hammer VO2 the whole season and wonder why their athletes are toast by the time states and regionals happen.
In Europe and Kenya the training is much more threshold-oriented, which is closer to his CV paces. Now does he only do CV/moderate running? No! He adds some VO2 stuff, but only in small doses like 3x1k@CV followed by 5x600@VO2. He never exceeds 800m in length for VO2 intervals and always combines them with some CV first (and faster stuff afterwards).
In theory his system makes sense - you constantly improve because you never burn out, and the CV warms up the body for the incoming harder work afterwards. Is it the best way to train someone for the Olympics? I don't know, but at least he believes in his own philosophies.
Thurl Ravenscroft wrote:
milermb wrote:
From the brief clip of the race I have just seen, very brief, he will have difficulty getting to the final at Worlds. Slow pace is pretty much guaranteed in Doha especially in the heats and as yet there's no evidence of real acceleration and kick from him. Fast 1500/mile times are no guarantee that an athlete can kick hard over the last 300 or so in a slow 5000.
^^^^^^^^this x1000
He does not have the change of gears and closing speed to compete on the world's stage. He won't even make the final.
He better make the final! This may be his only shot at a WC final...they don't come easy in this day & age.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
V Trigger wrote:
He even said in his feature on this website that he thinks most of the coaching profession is misguided for emphasizing 3k and 5k pace in workouts instead of CV. That's arrogant.
No, that's exactly what he believes in. He is at the forefront of improving the running world overall, but optimizing training methods. He is sharing his knowledge/opinions because he hopes that the coaching world will change and more people train with his philosophies.
He said American runners are being run into the ground with VO2MAX intervals, like 5x1k @3-5k pace, a staple of Daniels for example. He says that it would lead to quick improvements in the first 5-6 weeks, but then stagnation and burn-out and race performances start to suffer. Some coaches hammer VO2 the whole season and wonder why their athletes are toast by the time states and regionals happen.
In Europe and Kenya the training is much more threshold-oriented, which is closer to his CV paces. Now does he only do CV/moderate running? No! He adds some VO2 stuff, but only in small doses like 3x1k@CV followed by 5x600@VO2. He never exceeds 800m in length for VO2 intervals and always combines them with some CV first (and faster stuff afterwards).
In theory his system makes sense - you constantly improve because you never burn out, and the CV warms up the body for the incoming harder work afterwards. Is it the best way to train someone for the Olympics? I don't know, but at least he believes in his own philosophies.
But is that a straw man?
There are plenty of athletes who have burned out on a threshold model. Stephen Seillers work points against a predominately threshold model.
And tinmans athletes. We don’t know who he has coached for extended period to see if they’ve burned out.
His high profile youngster, Grace Ping, looks like she’s headed backwards despite Tinmans overtures of long term development.
Tinman is king.
GFY’s.
Ghost of Jason Rexing's Trainers wrote:
Aged Discriminator wrote: I'm so very, very sorry, poster smd, but Drew Hunter will continue to be referred to as "the kid" for just a little bit longer by some of LetsRun's other posters.
At age 22 (as well as 21), Scott Douglas was every bit a real man, boiling bricks of ramen in a roach-infested rental house in Williamsburg, VA, and patching the soles of his moldy Air Pegasus 3's with shoe-goo while puzzling over the perfect phrasing to put on his application for a medical redshirt (glute strains and shin splints foiled another season, natch) to gain a 5th year of eligibility and continue stalking the English professors with sly looks from under his flaxen bangs, as well surreptitiously pouring out cans of Yeungling in the bathroom sink at parties and refilling them with tap water. I dedicate this run-on to David Brooks.
http://www.scottdouglas.biz/wp-content/uploads/cornwall_0072.jpg
NOT to be missed!
After watching the race.
I wouldn't want to send a guy to worlds who REFUSES to take some pacing duties in a race that goes out fast AND he did not have the standard. I assume drew knew who did and didn't have the standard before the race and probably bet on getting that 3rd spot.
costawasta wrote:
After watching the race.
I wouldn't want to send a guy to worlds who REFUSES to take some pacing duties in a race that goes out fast AND he did not have the standard. I assume drew knew who did and didn't have the standard before the race and probably bet on getting that 3rd spot.
Do you not understand how racing works? It isn't about just getting the standard, you have to get the standard and still place top 3. Had Kincaid pushed the pace to get the standard he would've been out kicked and not placed top 3. He took a gamble hoping that after going through the mile in 4:07 he would still get the standard even with a slow middle part of the race. He ran smart and just came up a little short.
reality czech wrote:
JumpsDoctor wrote:
I know you're a troll so I feel silly for responding to this, but I'll tell you why the logic doesn't extend in the ways you say it does. If Hunter doesn't do well, that has an impact on his livelihood and emotional state, and has no financial or emotional impact on your life whatsoever. I think politicians and teachers and doctors, financial advisors, and plumbers, etc., should be held accountable for their actions, because their professions have critical impacts on the lives of others in ways that a professional runner pursuing their goals does not.
No assertion you made logically follows from what I said, but I assume you don't care, so have a good day.
That's an important distinction that you neither stated nor implied until this post (that it has to impact the critic in order to not be pathetic), which adds much needed clarity to your point. So you think anyone criticizing professional athletes is pathetic. You're entitled to your opinion, though you appear to be in a very small minority.
Again, there were very few things implied by my statement, and I think the only thing you can take from what I stated explicitly is that it is pathetic to criticize professional runners for not improving as you think they should, and for how they dress and wear their hair. I personally think criticism of a professional athlete's toxic behavior is warranted when it is relevant, but that's not even close to kind of criticism I disagree with. I don't think any of that was very hard to figure out from what I said, it seems you just wanted to take issue with it. Enjoy your freedom of speech, but there's no need to level harsh words at a young man training hard and doing his best.
JumpsDoctor wrote:
reality czech wrote:
That's an important distinction that you neither stated nor implied until this post (that it has to impact the critic in order to not be pathetic), which adds much needed clarity to your point. So you think anyone criticizing professional athletes is pathetic. You're entitled to your opinion, though you appear to be in a very small minority.
Again, there were very few things implied by my statement, and I think the only thing you can take from what I stated explicitly is that it is pathetic to criticize professional runners for not improving as you think they should, and for how they dress and wear their hair. I personally think criticism of a professional athlete's toxic behavior is warranted when it is relevant, but that's not even close to kind of criticism I disagree with. I don't think any of that was very hard to figure out from what I said, it seems you just wanted to take issue with it. Enjoy your freedom of speech, but there's no need to level harsh words at a young man training hard and doing his best.
The logic you have used would mean that you think anyone criticizing a professional athlete when they have not also been a professional athlete is pathetic. That is very clearly a minority opinion, given that it is even some people's jobs to criticize professional athletes.
You'll not find me leveling harsh words at Drew. I've defended him. I just think your position is a peculiar one.
