Jakob Ingebrigtsen Training

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Well, the claim that he does a lot of 5k pace training opposes the premise of this entire thread.

Yes, and that's very interesting I think . He confirms himself he USUALLY do A LOT of 5 k pace training!

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Well, the claim that he does a lot of 5k pace training opposes the premise of this entire thread.

Not necessarily because wouldn’t their 400 meter repeats at threshold effort be 5k pace? I mean 400 meter intervals are so short that they would need to go around 5k pace to get their lactate to threshold right?

Ghjh wrote:

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Well, the claim that he does a lot of 5k pace training opposes the premise of this entire thread.

Not necessarily because wouldn’t their 400 meter repeats at threshold effort be 5k pace? I mean 400 meter intervals are so short that they would need to go around 5k pace to get their lactate to threshold right?

No, of course not . Their 400m LT intervals are at their correct threshold pace, and many of them with very short rest will fast raise their pulse to sufficient level. The thing is that it doesn`t matter the length of the rep, more important is the total length being at LT-pace. And of course you can do big volume when taking recoveries between.

- HSC, High Scientific Coaching -

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Ghjh wrote:

Not necessarily because wouldn’t their 400 meter repeats at threshold effort be 5k pace? I mean 400 meter intervals are so short that they would need to go around 5k pace to get their lactate to threshold right?

No, of course not . Their 400m LT intervals are at their correct threshold pace, and many of them with very short rest will fast raise their pulse to sufficient level. The thing is that it doesn`t matter the length of the rep, more important is the total length being at LT-pace. And of course you can do big volume when taking recoveries between.

- HSC, High Scientific Coaching -

Threshold always being the same pace despite interval duration

does not make sense. 25 x 400m is a much much easier effort than 10 x 1k if run at the same pace. Even if you decrease the rest. I just don’t see how the 25 x 400m would get you to lactate threshold without running a faster pace than 1 hour race pace.

Ghjh wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

No, of course not . Their 400m LT intervals are at their correct threshold pace, and many of them with very short rest will fast raise their pulse to sufficient level. The thing is that it doesn`t matter the length of the rep, more important is the total length being at LT-pace. And of course you can do big volume when taking recoveries between.

- HSC, High Scientific Coaching -

Threshold always being the same pace despite interval duration

does not make sense. 25 x 400m is a much much easier effort than 10 x 1k if run at the same pace. Even if you decrease the rest. I just don’t see how the 25 x 400m would get you to lactate threshold without running a faster pace than 1 hour race pace.

Go out tomorrow and try to run 25 x 400m at your LT-pace and only 20-30 sec rest between and then come back here and tell us if your opinion has changed. Jim Ryan and Bob Schul did 40 x 400m like this , also the best Portuguese marathoners during the "Portuguese Wonder era" , and Zatopek to mention some of them.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Ghjh wrote:

No, of course not . Their 400m LT intervals are at their correct threshold pace, and many of them with very short rest will fast raise their pulse to sufficient level. The thing is that it doesn`t matter the length of the rep, more important is the total length being at LT-pace. And of course you can do big volume when taking recoveries between.

- HSC, High Scientific Coaching -

Threshold always being the same pace despite interval duration

does not make sense. 25 x 400m is a much much easier effort than 10 x 1k if run at the same pace. Even if you decrease the rest. I just don’t see how the 25 x 400m would get you to lactate threshold without running a faster pace than 1 hour race pace.

Go out tomorrow and try to run 25 x 400m at your LT-pace and only 20-30 sec rest between and then come back here and tell us if your opinion has changed. Jim Ryan and Bob Schul did 40 x 400m like this , also the best Portuguese marathoners during the "Portuguese Wonder era" , and Zatopek to mention some of them.

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Ok I’m really interested in understanding threshold intervals better. So can one do 50 x 200m with 15 second rest or 100 x 100m with 7.5 seconds rest all at 1 hour race pace and still get the same threshold benefit?

Yes , Gerschlers runners back in the -30s -50s could do 100 x 200m and 200 x 100m like this , but they had more EXAKT best rest between down back to 120-125 bpm .

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Ghjh wrote:

Go out tomorrow and try to run 25 x 400m at your LT-pace and only 20-30 sec rest between and then come back here and tell us if your opinion has changed. Jim Ryan and Bob Schul did 40 x 400m like this , also the best Portuguese marathoners during the "Portuguese Wonder era" , and Zatopek to mention some of them.

[/

Ok I’m really interested in understanding threshold intervals better. So can one do 50 x 200m with 15 second rest or 100 x 100m with 7.5 seconds rest all at 1 hour race pace and still get the same threshold benefit?

Yes , Gerschlers runners back in the -30s -50s could do 100 x 200m and 200 x 100m like this , but they had more EXAKT best rest between down back to 120-125 bpm .

But I think you understand it`s quite dull to do eg 100 x 200 m so I prefer more normal LT workouts at 800m-3000m .

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Yes , Gerschlers runners back in the -30s -50s could do 100 x 200m and 200 x 100m like this , but they had more EXAKT best rest between down back to 120-125 bpm .

But I think you understand it`s quite dull to do eg 100 x 200 m so I prefer more normal LT workouts at 800m-3000m .

So say I do 25 x 400m with 30 seconds rest at 5k pace am I going over the lactate threshold? What heart rate % am I getting up to by the end of each 400?

Ghjh wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

But I think you understand it`s quite dull to do eg 100 x 200 m so I prefer more normal LT workouts at 800m-3000m .

So say I do 25 x 400m with 30 seconds rest at 5k pace am I going over the lactate threshold? What heart rate % am I getting up to by the end of each 400?

After a couple of them at 5 k race pace and only 30 sec rest you will soon climb over the LT level. I suggest you test it in training and feel and see what happens to your pulse.

I think it’s likely the 400s are closer to 5k pace. Who said they’re only taking 20 seconds rest?

Also, jakob saying he does a lot of 5k pace training doesn’t negate the premise of the thread. He didn’t say when he does that training. The poster who had a friend running with them was running with them during their transitional period when they upped their LT work before season racing and specific workouts started.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Yes , Gerschlers runners back in the -30s -50s could do 100 x 200m and 200 x 100m like this , but they had more EXAKT best rest between down back to 120-125 bpm .

Igloi used them decades ago as "aerobic intervals". He broke the monotony of thinking that intervals must be hard and anaerobic. What he did with his 100s and 200s with very short rest was to create aerobic and anaerobic adaptions. Lydiard would be aerobic = long distance running, but Igloi was like - no! You can raise your threshold and improve your endurance also with intervals!

He did 50x200 with 50m rest and stuff like that. Worked perfect for shorter distances trying to move up, as they can't handle a full steady 6 mile threshold run yet.

Actually, if I were to train Usain Bolt for a 5k I would do a similar approach. No way he could handle a 5 mile tempo at let's say 5:20. But he can surely raise his HR to/slightly above threshold level by doing many 100s with short rest over and over again.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

I think it’s likely the 400s are closer to 5k pace. Who said they’re only taking 20 seconds rest?

Also, jakob saying he does a lot of 5k pace training doesn’t negate the premise of the thread. He didn’t say when he does that training. The poster who had a friend running with them was running with them during their transitional period when they upped their LT work before season racing and specific workouts started.

I don`t think…..I know their 25 x 400m are done at LT- pace and short rests. When they are running 400s at 5 k pace the amount usually stay at most 15 x 400m .

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

I think it’s likely the 400s are closer to 5k pace. Who said they’re only taking 20 seconds rest?

Also, jakob saying he does a lot of 5k pace training doesn’t negate the premise of the thread. He didn’t say when he does that training. The poster who had a friend running with them was running with them during their transitional period when they upped their LT work before season racing and specific workouts started.

I don`t think…..I know their 25 x 400m are done at LT- pace and short rests. When they are running 400s at 5 k pace the amount usually stay at most 15 x 400m .

We need to know that LT doesn't mean 1 hour race pace as Jack Daniels defined it. In Europe, LT is considered to be the pace at 4 mmol, where the lactate curve experiences a sudden rise. For most mid-d runners this occurs more around their 10k pace, so ~30 min pace. 25x400 at 10k pace with 30s rest is a fantastic session to improve LT. Doesn't take long to recover from it either.

Maybe what he meant, and the English was to blame, was that his training is arguably at least as suitable for 5000m races as for 1500m races because he does the mileage of a 5k runner and does so in a way that really helps his 5000m pace, even though he is not literally running much of anything at 5000m race pace.

One question I have is if they are always running these threshold runs at the same pace, regardless of the distance, why always take blood lactate measures? They're not doing an experiment. They're training and apparently at the same pace during the year, a pace apparently set by the original VO2 max test on the treadmill.

Jim Ryun's training there has him doing 50x440y in 69 with 1:51 rest (reps every 3 minutes). That is 150 minutes of workout, 2 1/2 hours, to cover 12 1/2 miles in 57:30, if it was standing rest, or a heaping 25 miles in 2:30, exactly 6 flat mile pace overall, if he was jogging a lap in 1:51 between reps (7:24 pace). 69/440y is better than 28:45 10k pace (6 1/4 miles in 28:45, 12 1/2 in 57:30). It's actually very close to Ryan Hall's best "threshold pace", 1 hr pace, that is, half marathon in 59:43.

For Ryun, you'd have to say that it was a lot closer to his 10k pace, although with that kind of training, maybe he would have run a much better 10k than the wr in 1967.

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

Great discussion guys.

Here is a lecture from Seiler summarizing his views on training for anyone interested.

https://lecturecapture.brookes.ac.uk/Mediasite/Play/3b951db65dd44082a876060aab67f5c51d

Great post. I learned so much from watching this.

zxcvzvcx wrote:

Maybe what he meant, and the English was to blame, was that his training is arguably at least as suitable for 5000m races as for 1500m races because he does the mileage of a 5k runner and does so in a way that really helps his 5000m pace, even though he is not literally running much of anything at 5000m race pace.

One question I have is if they are always running these threshold runs at the same pace, regardless of the distance, why always take blood lactate measures? They're not doing an experiment. They're training and apparently at the same pace during the year, a pace apparently set by the original VO2 max test on the treadmill.

In Norway and Sweden English is our second language to learn in school, so it`s hardly any linguistic misunderstanding.

The other question that you had why they sometimes measures blood lactate is because then they can have perfect control of shape and when it`s time to change pace, the Art of coaching.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

I don`t think…..I know their 25 x 400m are done at LT- pace and short rests. When they are running 400s at 5 k pace the amount usually stay at most 15 x 400m .

We need to know that LT doesn't mean 1 hour race pace as Jack Daniels defined it. In Europe, LT is considered to be the pace at 4 mmol, where the lactate curve experiences a sudden rise. For most mid-d runners this occurs more around their 10k pace, so ~30 min pace. 25x400 at 10k pace with 30s rest is a fantastic session to improve LT. Doesn't take long to recover from it either.

No, 10 k pace is too fast for most runners when we talk about LT. The best pace should be what Daniels suggests , roughly 1 hour race pace, or paces slightly slower than that.