Ran at Oregon? for how long? did you get cut? or did you just get run off? if you're gonna make a claim like that to back up your post you have to go all the way and give your name. Every runner who ran for Smith long enough was extremely loyal and would not be bashing him on the internet.
Ran at Oregon wrote:
at the number of top national recruits, and measure it against these numbers and a Stanford or Arkansas program, you'll be scratching your head just like you were last year when they qualified 0 people and 0 teams for NCAA cross.
The Portland Brown Shirt lynch mob shut Martin's recruiting down (in distances) a couple of years ago. When Oregon was 5th at NCAA cross they did it with only 2.5 distance scholarships. That in and of itself is amazing.
Lida and Common Sence are right. Salazar and the others cut Smith's recruiting throat when it came to the top distance runners, especially in Oregon. I'm anxious to see Alberto win the NCAA Cross Country Championships with 4 scholarships as he implied he can do. Oh wait, he didn't actually say he could do it, he said the new coach could do it. Ignorant dude that guy is!
What proof do you have that Alberto Salazar interfered with Smith's recruiting?
When?
Back in the day, when Smith was at Wisconsin, when he had a lot of all americans, A LOT of top recruits, but very few top placers. It's understandable, he undertrains slow paced stuff and drives a lot of recruits out.
He seems to make great high schoolers, good collegiates. Pay attention over the past 12 years, you'll see.
Interesting to see that you got called on it so now you are caveating your claims.
Since you have reduced your claim to delete the Oregon years, and are now referring to the Wisconsin years, let's focus on Smith's time at Wisconsin: you made this statement: "if you luck at the number of top national recruits, and measure it against these numbers and a Stanford or Arkansas program, you'll be scratching your head". OK ex-Oregon runner, who are all those All-American Wisconsin recruits who never made top 15 in XC or top 5 at NC's? I know that Dobler and Fein were two of his All-American recruits, but both accomplished your measure. Who else...? Start naming them, and knock off the wriggling.
The best, or most laughable part of your argument is that you use Stanford and I beleive Arkansas to compare to the talent developed by Smith. First Stanford, I beleive that when they won their last NCAA cross title the total count was 31, 31 foot locker finalists on the team. So if you wanna talk ratio of developed talent..... And arkansas, well, you're got Daniel Lincoln, and, and, oh yea, a bunch of foreigners. Now, I have the utmost respect for McDonnel and for Lanana, but these are two terrible examples. Next question please.
[quote]Ran at Oregon wrote:
When?
Back in the day, when Smith was at Wisconsin,
That says it all, how do you have any idea what kind of training Eric was doing if you weren't on teh team with him, you're just falling all over yourself.
Pascal, not a high school phenom, went off the hook after he left Martin, and Steve Fein quit running as soon as college was over. It's hard to speculate on what he could have done, he ran 13:40 as a sophomore probably spending more time in the weight room then sub 68 pace. Strangely he never ran better than that, even though he was 3rd at NCAA cross.
As far as sub par guys.........Matt Downin. He took off after Martin left as well. Mark Hauser. He left, and then ran much better at UCLA. I really don't have time to research this subject, maybe I can get it to you tomorrow if someone else doesn't come up with some more.
If AlSal is a self deluded putz, you are an unrefined,
uncultured, uninformed, self absorbed shmuck/putz! Ya...
you're a legitimate, bonified shmuck/putz. Your ideas and opinions are not of your own design, but rather you have gleaned, like all gleaning ladies, your so called "inside
knowledge" from the lexicon of Other's! In fact, someone should do a movie about you and call it "Others"!
Cult leader! Ha! Did you really say that... person of many names\personalities... MPD would be a good name for you since you get off in calling others in abbreviated form. A cult leader is someone who leads a religious following over the edge...like Michael Jakson, Marl Manson, or Bimmy Jones. Salazar is an athlete and a coach with integrity and solid values. Your discrimating, disparaging and dishonorable remarks only highlight the truth...that you are a self deluded ego maniac that thrives on diminishing the works of people who have achieved greatness the likes of which you cannot even conceive for yourself; so you work the boards and make yourself feel good about what you consider art and efforts.
Do you actually think that Nike needs anything or anyone to legitimize it's operations? Where there is greatness, there will always be petty little people who instead of emulating efforts that lead to grandeur, boil themselves in there lifetime oily quest for mediocrity!
Re the disparaging remarks about dysfunctionality...I guess you are quite familiar with the word coming from the kind of roots you grow out of; it is very obious from the many nuances of inferiority in your writing, that you have been abused profoundly throughout your career on earth and deserve all the pity this forum can offer you. I for one enocourage the Others to shed a tear or two for you and offer many words of advice that may lead you to the One and only Path you should seek.
Q
What a putz!! You make a ridiculous statment, then try to fudge an explanation when called out. Now, when no one buys your bs, you plead a lack of time to research something that you cited as fact. Why not take some responsibility for your inane post and admit that you were wrong and don't know crap about Martin Smith or the athletes that he has recruited and developed.
Okay, "Ran at Oregon," I'll bite. Dobert is a terrible example. Yes he improved to 8:15 after college, but he WAS an NCAA champ and ran 8:24 in college. What a terrible college career. (You know who else improved this much or more after college? Probably 75% of the national class distance runners out there, whether they changed coaches or not.)
You also seem to want it both ways--blaming Smith for undertraining (Downin, Dobert) and for burning people out (Fein). Maybe each of these stories is different, and you don't know the ins and outs? Just a thought.
Below are the all-time Wisconsin lists, copied from their website (they haven't updated for this year). Judge for yourself.
Finally, if your criticisms of Smith are accurate, there must be a lot of better college coaches out there. I want to know just who these coaches are that are producing high numbers of athletes faster than the Wisconsin/Oregon runners Smith coached (this is different from coaches you admire). I'll spot you McDonnell (asterix for internationals), Lananna (who had significantly more high profile recruits), and maybe Wetmore. Who else? Who? If, as I think, there are only two or three coaches with more success, what does that make Smith?
1500 meters
3:35.29 Tim Hacker (Smith)
3:37.78 Steve Lacy
3:38.59 Don Volkey (Smith)
3:39.46 Jerry Schumacher (Smith)
3:40.36 Josh Spiker
3:40.68 Pascal Dobert (Smith)
3:40.91 Jason Casiano (Smith)
3:41.24 John Easker (Smith)
3:41.30 Donovan Bergstrom (Smith)
3:41.45 Matt Tegenkamp
3000 SC
8:22.81 Randy Jackson
8:24.23 Pascal Dobert (Smith)
8:29.08 Donovan Bergstrom (Smith)
8:32.18 Isaiah Festa
8:35.0 Mark Larson
8:36.45 Jared Cordes
8:38.21 Rusty Korhonen (Smith)
8:40.4 Phil Laheurte
8:44.72 Joel Kaines (Smith)
8:48.20 Jason Vanderhoof
5000 meters
13:30.90 Matt Tegenkamp
13:37.2 John Easker (Smith)
13:38.6 Scott Fry (Smith)
13:38.87 Jay Schoenfelder
13:40.1 Tim Hacker (Smith)
13:40.37 Matt Downin (Smith?)
13:40.86 Steve Fein (Smith)
13:42.0 Glen Herold
13:42.44 Chris Solinsky
13:44.69 Jim Stintzi
10,000 meters
28:25.18 Mark Johnson
28:28.69 Simon Bairu
28:29.2 John Easker (Smith)
28:41.40 Adam Wallace
28:44.59 Scott Fry (Smith)
28:45.58 Matt Downin
28:45.87 Jim Stintzi
28:48:45 Chris Borsa (Smith)
28:54.89 Scott Jenkins (Smith)
28:57.46 James Menon (Smith)
Ran at Oregon wrote:
Steve Fein quit running as soon as college was over. It's hard to speculate on what he could have done, he ran 13:40 as a sophomore probably spending more time in the weight room then sub 68 pace. Strangely he never ran better than that, even though he was 3rd at NCAA cross.
Fein didn't quit running as soon as college was over. He had some injury problems and then decided to hang it up. That had nothing to do with Martin's coaching and training. Fein is and remains a big fan of Smith.
That's very interesting, what would be really interesting would be to compile a list of all-time top 10 smith athletes for every event. Since he coached only americans, at least that I know of, we could then compare it to an all time list of American athletes for any coach out there, I'd be willing to bet that his lists are in the top three for sure, if not the best.
fgerere wrote:
at central catholic, the guy didn't care about the entire team, only one runner, galen rupp.
That is entirely untrue.
Alberto was a very caring and giving coach - to all of the male distance runners (he didn't coach the girls team).
For example, he often transported a stationary bike from one athlete's house to another when athletes were injured; this included Stephen Oliver, Aaron Hensley, and others.
He was the confirmation sponsor for more than one of our athletes.
Y'all can spout your theorems and attack as you like, but the statement above regarding the Central Catholic team is a blatant lie.
dave frank
central catholic high school
Thank you for the comments, Dave. I know that Central Catholic teams have done well under the tutelage of yourself and Alberto. I also know that Alberto is a caring individual (in most cases).
The problem that many of us have is the fact that he went way over the line with his public statements that amounted to voicing his dislike of Martin Smith. Al is a grown man, in a very visible position. He ought to be smart enough and prepared enough to lay it on the line, and not start dancing, when the inevitable tough questions come out.
Perhaps he was so surrounded by "yes men" that he thought that everyone felt the same as him. Well, here's a message to Al, there are a lot of us who disagree with his tactics over the Martin Smith deal. Some of the stuff he (and his "yes men") did were over the top disrespectful of a great coach who has his shortcomings like the rest of us--Al included.
Lida Gader. Thank you. It can not be said better than you have put it here. I appreciate Dave's input, and I appreciate your statements.
Did you actually have anything to say? I didn't think so.
You know absolutely NOTHING about this topic.
Go away troll.
1500 meters
3:35.29 Tim Hacker (Smith)
3:37.78 Steve Lacy
3:38.59 Don Volkey (Smith)
3:39.46 Jerry Schumacher (Smith)
3:40.36 Josh Spiker
3:40.68 Pascal Dobert (Smith)
3:40.91 Jason Casiano (Smith)
3:41.24 John Easker (Smith)
3:41.30 Donovan Bergstrom (Smith)
3:41.45 Matt Tegenkamp
3000 SC
8:22.81 Randy Jackson
8:24.23 Pascal Dobert (Smith)
8:29.08 Donovan Bergstrom (Smith)
8:32.18 Isaiah Festa
8:35.0 Mark Larson
8:36.45 Jared Cordes
8:38.21 Rusty Korhonen (Smith)
8:40.4 Phil Laheurte
8:44.72 Joel Kaines (Smith)
8:48.20 Jason Vanderhoof
5000 meters
13:30.90 Matt Tegenkamp
13:37.2 John Easker (Smith)
13:38.6 Scott Fry (Smith)
13:38.87 Jay Schoenfelder
13:40.1 Tim Hacker (Smith)
13:40.37 Matt Downin (Smith?)
13:40.86 Steve Fein (Smith)
13:42.0 Glen Herold
13:42.44 Chris Solinsky
13:44.69 Jim Stintzi
10,000 meters
28:25.18 Mark Johnson
28:28.69 Simon Bairu
28:29.2 John Easker (Smith)
28:41.40 Adam Wallace
28:44.59 Scott Fry (Smith)
28:45.58 Matt Downin
28:45.87 Jim Stintzi
28:48:45 Chris Borsa (Smith)
28:54.89 Scott Jenkins (Smith)
28:57.46 James Menon (Smith)
Wow, thanks for the cool stats.
Pretty impressive.
It would be interesting to see when the non Smith marks were put up. Were they all by Schumaker?
If so, I think it would be fair to say that Jerry has done a better job at putting up the higher marks.
It seems that Martin did a really good job at Wisconsin. But as some others have said, he makes a lot of all americans, but even their all time lists (Smith coached) don't seem to have all that many tier 1 marks.
It looks like a lot of times that would place 5-10th at NCAA's. Not saying that isn't good, it's REALLY good. But after hearing so much about how great Smith is, I think that list almost negates the "Great" coach statement by showing how many top marks were not his.
I was suprised not to see Fein higher on those lists. He was not even on the 10k or 1500m, although he did transfer with Smith to Oregon. Did he run faster at Oregon? I remember him running xc his senior year, he was on fire! That guy was talented. Only got beat by 2 people, both foreigners, and he really should've been second that year.
I've been interested to see what kind of times/marks that Martin has produced with so much discussion of him. This certainly helps, thanks. Also, how long was Martin at Wisconsin?
Ran for Oregon,
I personally ran on the same Smith teams that had Fein, Downin, Dobert, Menon, Casiano, Hauser..etc and alot of other very talented runners. To make blanket statements about the reasoning for each persons success or struggles under Smith is very short-sighted. Keep in mind that training a group of 15 guys from the age of 18-23 is a very daunting task. Especially at a program that is a perennial powerhouse when it comes to distance running. During those years we had guys who couldn't make the top 8 in Cross Country at Wisconsin but would easily qualify for a NCAA if running on another D1 team. That is a very tough thing to deal with mentally knowing you could lose your spot after one bad race.
Each person had their shortcomings including myself when it came to training, overtraining, and other various issues. The problem with Martin has never been his training, racing philosophy, but his at times rough personality. He will do very well at OU.
I really think that the "Oregon" supporters need to take a step back and realize that Martin built up a program that was in shambles for quite a long time. Also, they should be ashamed that they basically ran Dillenger who was one of their own out of town.