Is Kejelcha or Mo a better runner?

Armstronglivs wrote:

Runner A is not better than runner B if he loses to him. Jeez, only in a sport like running will anyone argue the loser is the better. If time is the most important factor then championship medals should simply be handed out to the runners with the fastest career times. No need to race. The logic of someone with no grasp of competitive sport. You might ask yourself why most races are run tactically if proof of superiority is simply to run a fast time. Well, waddya know - most runners prefer to win. Time always comes second to winning.

Congratulations, Nils Schumann is now a better runner than Wilson Kipketer.

[quote]Elixer wrote:

Anyone who thinks Farah couldn't run faster is deluded but we only have pr's to go on so here's a comparison of their pr's and I don't think it's as wide as people are saying. I tried to remain impartial by giving them their best performances indoor v outdoor. i.e compare Kejelcha mile indoor(instead of his outdoor of 3:32 and Farah's indoor 2 mile instead of his outdoor 3k)

Kejelcha's 3:48i is equivalent to 3:31i vs Farah 3:28. Farah wins!

Farah's 8:03i is equivalent to 7:28i vs Kejelcha's 7:28. Tie game!

1500m: For someone putting so much effort into the analysis, you've lost your head. To say that 3:28 outdoors at Monaco is the "best performance" v 3:31i without further thought is madness. 3:31 indoors would put you first or second in the world, all time. Where's Mo's outdoor 3:28.8 put him?

3000m: What?

Crawl out wrote:

1500m: For someone putting so much effort into the analysis, you've lost your head. To say that 3:28 outdoors at Monaco is the "best performance" v 3:31i without further thought is madness. 3:31 indoors would put you first or second in the world, all time. Where's Mo's outdoor 3:28.8 put him?

3000m: What?

3:48.45 is a weak record, Coghlan has said it and I'd take his word over yours. Eamonn Coghlan is 3rd all-timd, Matthew Centrowitz is 4th All-time. Galen Rupp is 6th.

You want me to take tracks in to order too? Report back the difference between the indoor track in Birmingham arena and Gotenberg outdoor please? Indoor tracks are as fast or even fast than outdoor tracks these days. Defining the difference between each track is impossible so this is as fair as you are going to get in comparison otherwise you end up in the realm of measuring of measuring relative dew points and angle of the track relative to the wind on a certain 15 second window of one race compared to another.

3000m: what?

An 8:03.4 2 mile converts to a 7:28.7 3000m for Farah just like a 3:48.46 converts to 3:31.4 for Kejelcha. If you want to go down the indoor road on that one, You can say that is superior to Kejelcha's outdoor 7:28 by a long way if Kejelcha's 3:31 equivalent indoors is way better than Farah's 3:28 outdoors. Hell, Daniel Komen ran 4 seconds faster outdoors and in so lets say a 7:28 indoor is worth a 7:24 outdoor and look where you end up, in the land of bias is where.

The all-time list means nothing in comparison as A) Elite 1500m/mile races are ridiculously rare compared to outdoor ones. You are shifting the goal posts, I remained consistent. I gave Farah one indoor loss for a distance he was slower over in equivalent and I gave Kejelcha another.

He was at the Sydney Olympics. Or would you prefer that they gave the gold to Kipketer because he was the "better" runner? Why should we have races when time-trials are the truest sense of excellence? But the point, which you miss, is that a runner's career is judged ultimately by their range of accomplishments, and running fast times - however impressive - doesn't beat significant victories such as major championship titles, otherwise every 1500 runner who has run faster than Herb Elliot was or is a better runner than an athlete unbeaten over his career distance, an Olympic champion (and world record holder). In every sport, it's the wins you have that make you a winner. Nothing else. Except on Letsrun.

you played yourself wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Runner A is not better than runner B if he loses to him. Jeez, only in a sport like running will anyone argue the loser is the better. If time is the most important factor then championship medals should simply be handed out to the runners with the fastest career times. No need to race. The logic of someone with no grasp of competitive sport. You might ask yourself why most races are run tactically if proof of superiority is simply to run a fast time. Well, waddya know - most runners prefer to win. Time always comes second to winning.

Congratulations, Nils Schumann is now a better runner than Wilson Kipketer.

He was at the Sydney Olympics. Or would you prefer that they gave the gold to Kipketer because he was the "better" runner? Why should we have races when time-trials are the truest sense of excellence? But the point, which you miss, is that a runner's career is judged ultimately by their range of accomplishments, and running fast times - however impressive - doesn't beat significant victories such as major championship titles, otherwise every 1500 runner who has run faster than Herb Elliot was or is a better runner than an athlete unbeaten over his career distance, an Olympic champion (and world record holder). In every sport, it's the wins you have that make you a winner. Nothing else. Except on Letsrun.

I did not imply that winning doesn't matter, and the only reason you can interpret my response in that way is by continuing your simpleton's view of evaluating who is the better runner. Head-to-head races matter, times matter, titles matter, era matters, a lot of things matter but you are trying to boil it down to a single issue as evident by your ludicrous 2nd paragraph, because that's all you can process apparently.

"If runner A runs 12:46 and runner B runs 12:53, runner A is better. If runner B beats runner A in a tactical championship race, runner A is still better."

That is hilarious. So Farah repeatedly beat guys better than him - that's incredible! And you think Jonathan Maiyo is a better marathoner than Sammy Wanjiru. Good luck getting a lot to agree with you there.

seasoned ranker wrote:

......... wrote:

Do you think Mo is better than Kipchoge?

On the track? Yes. Easily.

......... wrote:

How about Komen?

Closer comparison. I'd entertain an argument for either.

Yeah, 7:20 is pretty much the same as 7:32.

And 12:39 is pretty much the same as 12:53. Real coin toss.

Here’s a neat little fact: They give three medals out at every single Olympics and WCs... per event!! You know what they don’t give out at every single championship or every race? Fast times.

You wanna know how one really fast 1500m runner can win a lot of 5/10k medals? Turn every race into a 400m sprint.

You wanna know another way to win a lot of 5/10k medals? Be the fastest 1500m (should-be) specialist in a championship race that NO ONE wants to time trial because NO ONE was good enough to safely risk front running it and breaking the 1500m grifter loping along on their heels.

You wanna know who COULD have front run time-trial smashed a 1500m specialist? Bekele. Haile. Komen, for sure. Arguably today’s Kejelcha, too. He did lead most of the uber-5k last summer.

Consideration is made for outstanding performances. Consideration is also made for long careers. Surely even you must understand that.

I also like your notion that a single runner can "turn every race into a 400m sprint". Farah is mighty powerful to be able to do that!

Here are some neat numbers:

>>Mo Farah’s PRs @ ~Kejelcha’s age (21 and change)

3:43 / 4:00

8:03

13:38

28:58 (older than Kejelcha)

______

>>Kejelcha’s PRs:

3:32

7:28

12:46

28:13 (at 16 years, 2 months)

59:17

______

... then Mo goes to NOP and completely transforms...

... then Kejelcha goes to NOP and seems to be responding quite well...

Kejelcha wouldn't run away from Mo. Read this from someone who understands what it takes and what a 12:4x runner looks like. This quote is an expert opinion from someone who has coached 3:28, 12:4x and 26:3x runners and not a letsrun armchair warrior. Canova said this in 2014 and he thought it was reasonable that Mo could run 12:40 and under 26:30.

Why didn’t he run faster then? Who was stopping him?

Mo would routinely hit the front of a pack and slow things down.

Mo was UNARGUABLY the beneficiary of racing against extremely poor tacticians.

doot doot wrote:

seasoned ranker wrote:

Consideration is made for outstanding performances. Consideration is also made for long careers. Surely even you must understand that.

I also like your notion that a single runner can "turn every race into a 400m sprint". Farah is mighty powerful to be able to do that!

Mo would routinely hit the front of a pack and slow things down.

Mo was UNARGUABLY the beneficiary of racing against extremely poor tacticians.

Mo Farah is like 5'8" 125#. If he goes to the front and slows down they can just go around. He can't turn races into a 400m sprint by himself, and you're an idiot for thinking he can.

doot doot wrote:

Why didn’t he run faster then? Who was stopping him?

You didn't even read the full post with a reply in 10 seconds, closed minded and not worth arguing with.

Exactly. Can you imagine being dumb enough to think that Kejelcha would run away from Mo when he couldn't even run away from 18 year-old Selemon Barega? Priceless.

bareezy wrote:

Exactly. Can you imagine being dumb enough to think that Kejelcha would run away from Mo when he couldn't even run away from 18 year-old Selemon Barega? Priceless.

To be fair, Barega is 10 seconds faster than Mo ever was.

Lofty Goals wrote:

bareezy wrote:

Exactly. Can you imagine being dumb enough to think that Kejelcha would run away from Mo when he couldn't even run away from 18 year-old Selemon Barega? Priceless.

To be fair, Barega is 10 seconds faster than Mo ever was.

Before Kejelcha failed to run away from Barega, Selemon's PR was 12:55. He ran 12:43 because Kejelcha thought he could run away from a 12:55 guy and was wrong.

bareezy wrote:

Lofty Goals wrote:

To be fair, Barega is 10 seconds faster than Mo ever was.

Before Kejelcha failed to run away from Barega, Selemon's PR was 12:55. He ran 12:43 because Kejelcha thought he could run away from a 12:55 guy and was wrong.

Barega ran 12:43 thanks to Kejelcha's excellent pacing over the last 2000m of the race. If Kejelcha wouldn't have sacrificed himself and pulled the three of them to a fast time, there's no reason to think he wouldn't have won. As for Mo, he would have gotten dropped in a race that fast. People who think he could have run considerably faster are imbeciles. Do you honestly expect me to believe that Al Sal, who had Rupp time trial multiple races in order to chase records and is now doing the same with Kejelcha, knew Mo was in incredible shape but didn't allow him to go after faster times? Remember that super fast 5k in Paris 7 years ago? Guess which world beater wasn't there.

Hahahaha, so Canova is an imbecile and Kejelcha couldn’t drop a 12:55 guy but would’ve been able to drop a 12:53 guy who regularly beat 12:4x guys. Got it!