Sub - 60 400m thread

Update: I have set prs in every distance this year by lowering bodyfat and building muscle only my legs. I am getting faster and closer to my ultimate goals (sub 60/sub 5) but I k ow they are still far away.

100m time trial (2018): 14.8

400m time trial (2018): 75.0

800m time trial (2018): 2:58

100m time trial (may2019): 14.3

400m time trial (may2019) 71.8

800m time trial (june2019): 2:41

The last two weeks I have managed to do these workouts:

6 x 20 seconds at 62/400 pace with 2 minutes rest

16 x 100m all in sub 16 with 1 minute rest

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I also did this workout last month and it was very taxing on the central nervous system lol:

10 x 50m sprints hitting 15-16mph top speed on each! 75s rest between each.

So not quite hitting those sub 60 paces in workouts (at least not for more than a few seconds) but I am hitting 60-65s paces which is a step closer!

No WAY would I have been able to do those workouts when I first stared posting in this thread. My next goal is 13.9x 100m FAT, I also plan to break 20:00 5km in a race next week because I have also been working on my endurance.

Update: Success!

Ran 58.84 today in a race, no spikes and no blocks. 40 minutes after a 5K on the track.

Anything useful to glean from this information? I did no specific sprint training and my current PRs are around 16:50 for the 5K, 1:16 for the half, and 2:46 for the full.

Basically I've done 4 sessions in the past 2 or so weeks that have been 150-300m in length around that 400-800 pace range with 2 max speed sessions. Time trialed a 200m 3 days ago and ran 25.6, was super pumped about that

Then I ran 56.3 today.

Spiits: 27.1, 29.2

Super pumped about this too lol, but that really hurt. Think I will do a 600m or 800m next week and then take 2 weeks off before resuming training for the 800 in earnest =)

JQ: awesome time for little to no speed work, that is amazing. Your endurance is something I envy, and in that spirit I'm definitely planning on working on that.

Yezzy: great strides man (no pun intended), looking forward to seeing you chase down that barrier

Just curious: I can do 10x200 @ 30/31s with 45s rest. What could I do for 400m? I ve already done 59, wonder how much room I have. I am a distance runner (16/34) so never train for sprints.

Half Man, you stated 400m is no longer a goal of yours but you still bumped this thread. That makes no sense. At more than one time, there were sub-1:50 800m threads. I find a sub-60 400m thread an embarrassment. Am. football players, baseball players, tennis players, futbol/soccer players, la crosse players and basketball players are laughing at runners. Six pages of sub-60 seconds 400m. Your reason for bumping this thread are illogical.

That indicates something not too far from a 2-min 800m, so I'd be surprised if you couldn't go 56-57 seconds. Of course, you may not do that in your next race, but that workout is indicative of that type of fitness.

Anyway, I'm focussing on 400/800 stuff again. I don't have access to a track, but I feel like I've got a lot faster at pure foot speed. I'm hoping I'm currently around 14s flat for the 100m in my regular trainers, which would bring me a little under 14s in spikes. If that's true, then I wouldn't be too far away once I throw in some specific workouts, as I've been running 30-35mpw fairly consistently, so the endurance should be there. There's no real way to measure it, though. Amusingly, something that really helps me run quickly is pretending I'm racing my friend, who I beat in a drunken sprint in the town square.

Anyway, I'll be posting here fairly regularly again. Training had to take a back seat for various reasons - I maintained fitness, but trained fairly haphazardly. I'm now finally free to train properly again, so watch this space.

Also, congratulations Howdy Brethen. You smashed the 60s barrier, even cracking 59. Way to go.

Bumping this again. How's everyone doing?

I've been off injured and sick for a week, but I'm hoping in a couple of days this lurgy will subside, and I can get back to it. The sickness might actually have been a blessing in disguise, as it forced me to take a few extra days off once the injury healed - and I am the type of person who will test an injury too early and screw things up again. Still, it'll be good to get back soon.

Anyone else making any progress?

I'm going to bump this again, after a long time off. It seemed a supportive thread for many when it was going, and if anyone still has this goal, then they can post here.

I am currently training 60mpw on a Tinman schedule, so I'm pretty far away from 400m training, but I am absolutely religious about including 3 or 4 strides at 400m pace after my tempo and CV workouts. I also include an 8*100m steep hill session, all at 400m effort once a week, so I'm running 300-800m at 400m pace every 2-3 days. I think this has actually boosted my speed, as when I run fast but relaxed, it's under 15s/100m.

I would absolutely love to time-trial 400m at the moment, as I suspect I'm right at 60. Unfortunately, I live a mile away from a track now, but it's closed because of COVID-19. I shall therefore be time-trialling on a flat 400m section of road that I have measured with my Garmin and Google Earth in the next week or so, so I can get a benchmark for when I can get on the track again.

What is really weird is that if I run fast but relaxed - i.e 400m effort - it is just as fast as when i sprint all-out. The added effort doesn't yield a faster time, it just tires me out more. I'm not too bothered about this, as it means my 400 pace is faster than I thought, but it does seem very strange!

Hope to get a few people posting here, even if your tracks are shut down too!

HM guy

CV training will improve your time in 400m as well (it is already highly aerobic, especially if you only run it in 60s. 50%+ aerobic, for elites in 43s it's of course more anaerobic). It is absolutely normal for Tinman trained athletes to improve their 400m time without doing any all-out sprinting, just strides and some mile paced hill reps/200s.

I only did 400m TT's after hard workouts, but got down from 62s to 57s both in the Adios, and both after hard workouts and doing standard Tinman training. With spikes and tapered I can probably run around 54s now. People underestimate the aerobic influence on a 400m, especially if it's a slow one in around 60s. The strength and aerobic power can really drop off many seconds there!

HM guy wrote:

What is really weird is that if I run fast but relaxed - i.e 400m effort - it is just as fast as when i sprint all-out. The added effort doesn't yield a faster time, it just tires me out more. I'm not too bothered about this, as it means my 400 pace is faster than I thought, but it does seem very strange!

This is because you have a typical distance runner approach to sprinting (don't worry, 99% of distance runners have that) - the harder you try, the faster you think you will be.

But then, look at the sprint forms of Usain Bolt or others - they look actually very relaxed, even when going all-out. Putting in more effort does not make you any faster, likely your form will fall off and you even lose speed. Sprinting is all about relaxation and perfect mechanics, that's why it's so hard for elites to break the 10s barrier.

For the strides, I recommend you to slow them down to 800m pace (16-17s) and focus on relaxation. I always did my strides at 400m pace, and it definitely impaired my improvement as a runner, I became too anaerobic and was unable to hold a strong pace in longer races. Since changing it to ~3k-mile pace, and normal pace during recovery than just shuffling I became a better runner.

Thanks for your advice, Phil. Does this mean that you should finish the 100m feeling like the whole thing was easy?

HM guy wrote:

Thanks for your advice, Phil. Does this mean that you should finish the 100m feeling like the whole thing was easy?

Well Tinman has a progression. At your level, ~5 min mile, you should do 800m of strides or 200's after the key workout.

1 month of strides at mile speed

1 month of strides at 800m speed

1 month of strides as accelerators - start 3-4 easy, then do the rest at 40m@1600m pace, 40m@800m pace, 40m@sprint

The progression should first teach you to relax at high speeds, and then to really get faster once your legs are used to it and strong. If you start sprinting faster than 800m pace right away, you would get so sore and regret it. The entire thing gets a lot easier once you have done the sets at mile pace/800m pace first.

Another tip he gave was to not run too fast on the easy days - that would depress anaerobic capacity and reduce leg strength.

29M here. I've always wanted to do sub 60 in the 400m, but haven't had the opportunity to train due to other sports.

I trained for distance for about a year in 2017, and has since been mostly a hobby jogger on with mostly basketball and weights. I did 65s in 2018 against my friend in a challenge. Was in decent distance shape then.

I started sprint training this summer with mostly strides, and eventually hill repeats and 200s.

After being in some shape, I did a 400m TT in trainer shoes in 65.8s. 200m was ~31s. It was pretty bad. Focused mostly on pure speed stuff in this phase. Most 6x200s / 30m flys / 3x 300m full recovery

On 9/25 - 64.7. Began 400 specific stuff like simulated 400s, and 100s

On 10/23 - 62.9 (with racing flats)

It's getting colder so I think outdoor training will be limited. I will have to resume training in the spring. Gonna have to find a way to stay fit and retain some of this new speed I developed.

Bumping this thread - going to make a sub 60 sec 400m this summer/fall my next fitness goal (which have become progressively slower over time when it comes to running). Anyone else in?

Currently I'm 5-9, 155 lbs, ran 49.0 relay split in my youth as a mid-distance runner. That was 20 years earlier and 20 lbs lighter.

My training for the past year has just been regular weights (5x a week) and about 4-8 miles per week of easy running with mostly 2-3 mile runs. In prior years I've trained for half marathons, 5k, etc, - you know, the middle aged hobby-jogger lifestyle.

I'm certain I was capable of sub 60, and maybe a couple seconds below 60, 5-6 years ago when I was in ~5min. mile shape. I'd put the over/under of my current 200m fitness at a low 29, with a decent possibility of getting under 27 with a few months with good training. At this point in my life I think it might be the last chance where breaking 60 doesnt become essentially impossible for me.

My plan this week is 2 sprint workouts, one workout of 8x10-12 second strides (not all out, just fast enough to get a sense of where i'm at, without getting injured) with as much rest as I want, one workout of 6x50m slight hill accelerations, closing in on 100% effort. If I feel ok with those, I'll plan on running a timed 200m (not sure on effort yet) on the weekend to gauge overall fitness. I'll additionally add some fast feet drills as a warm up to my regular weightlifting workouts.

I’m going to start on a journey to break 60 in 400m. I’m not sure if it’s possible, but more of a goal to strive for. I’m doing this mainly for health benefits and to have some type of goal. I’m 41, 5’10”, 195lbs. I wasn’t a distance runner when I was younger and played other sports. I’ve done bunch of long distance running as I’ve gotten older. I’ve run HM in 1:25. Marathon at 3:10. 5k in 18:30 few years ago. But I’ve been getting really tight and aches from all the miles I’ve put. I’ve been doing a lot more hill sprints and plyometrics which I enjoy doing. I also like to do some light lifting.
For training for 400M, I will be doing plyos or hill sprints in the morning. I’ll do lifting or do some type of sprint drills at night. On weekends, I’ll head to the track to do like 8x60, 5x200 or 3x 300m. I’ll take days off here and there when I feel tired. I’ll do yoga and stretching with bands a lot.
I’ll go do 400m soon to get a baseline. I also need to eat better and get my weight down to like 175lbs as that will be ideal.

I am HM guy. Changed handle. Good to see this thread back.

I stopped training properly for years after starting this thread, but I've properly started training and racing frequently on the track for the last 3 months, for the first time since I was 17. This feels a lot better, and sub 60 is still a goal of mine. I'm mostly going for 800m, but I need to run sub 60 to be able to run a decent 800m time.

My 400m best is 65.3, set last month. Also ran 200m in 29.87 an hour later. I've been training sprints and racing 800m frequently since, and I've got another 400m and 200m on the 4th of Sep. Hoping to go a little quicker there, and work down to sub 60 in a year or so.

Good luck to 41 400m - it's a great goal!

Good luck with your goal too!

Do you think you will truly dedicate your training to 400m/800m? I’ve enjoyed running at moderate pace for few miles, but I’m really going to dedicate to sprinting drills and not have any miles. I think reading the other thread about some guy betting $100 to break 56 had some great answers on what needs to be developed in order to run fast 400m and any distance running seems counterintuitive. But I do understand that running long distance is enjoyable and you’re also training for 800m.

I think I'm training more for 800m than 400m, but I've tried to copy a good mid-distance program. I do full sprints once a week - usually 4*100m off 8 mins rest, or 5*60m off 5 mins rest. I usually race frequently, which I'm using as 800m-specific work (as I have no access to a track and running 800m pace intervals alone sucks). I do one tempo a week of 5k, but always include hard strides before. Depending on where in the country I am, I run 10*30s hills hard or 10*1 min hard on the flat (as I am based in 2 places and only have access to a hill in one). I do 3 or 4 of these workouts a week, one of which is always the sprints. Other days I just run 10k easy, which comes to 35 miles a week.

It might not be perfect for 400m/800m - for that, I'd keep the tempo and sprints, make sure I had the hills rather than the 1-min reps, and make sure I had a speed endurance session for 400m/800m, and then just run easy twice a week. But it's not too far off, considering I'm racing frequently and only started properly training in the middle of May. Track season ends in Sep for me, and I then can't race again until Dec, so I'll try to do something close to the latter schedule in Oct/Nov and see if it makes me any quicker.

Do you think you’ll ever switch to dedicate yourself to completely sprinting workouts like what 400m runners do? From my limited research, it appears, they do close to zero jogging or running 3-5 miles.

I come from logging miles and could be “addicted” to running long distance. So, it’s a tough transition. But I want to see how fast I can run in 400m so I’ll be doing lot more of speed work, plyos and speed endurance workouts and dropping miles.

to keep myself busy as it’s hard for me to do such low mileage, I will have a side challenge of working up to doing 100 pushups in a row and will do lifting to keep me busy.