Jack Daniels 2Q is insane

Those were my splits. There was a loop you had to run twice, and it was into the wind, so that's why some random mile were off pace (baystate marathon in lowell ma). I was also fading at the end. I was not in a group, or even with anyone else, which makes it mentally hard, but I was passing people left and right (there were people laying on the ground stretching, felt really bad for them).

I'd say my other mistake, other than lack of experience in actually running a marathon, was that I trained for a 3 hour marathon. To give myself a better shot I probably should have trained with paces for a 2:55 marathon, or even a 2:57 or something, because expecting the weather and all conditions to be perfect, as well as how I feel that morning, is asking a lot.

Also, quick review of the race. It was a very flat course and lots of people cheering, but honestly it was too big for me. It just seemed like there were so many runners. I'd much prefer a smaller race, which I plan on doing this fall (clarence demar in NH).

Personally, I kept my mileage over 50 mpw all winter (new england, lots of snow), two work outs a week, all other running

Thank you smoove! Yeah I honestly wasn't that upset. I really don't know where I was going to find the extra 16 seconds during the race. I am looking forward to giving it another shot this fall.

For anyone that has used the Daniels plans…I’d be very interested in hearing what changes/modifications you made and your experiences in terms of how prepared you felt.

As background, I started the Q2 90-113km plan back in June. Because I was in the middle of triathlon season, I did the the two quality workouts in combination with 3 cycling workouts and 2-3 swim sessions. I didn’t aim to hit the weekly km goal as I simply wouldn’t have had time to and also wouldn’t be able to recover with the additional cycling workouts.

Ambitiously, I set my starting week one paces so that my final marathon pace runs would be the same as that required to get a sub 3 hour marathon (4:16/km). I saw this as a “stretch goal” but also thought I just might be able to do it (I did a half marathon in 1:28:30 in March).

Training was going well and I was completing the quality workouts as planned and hitting the prescribed paces. My weekly km’s fluctuated between 40 - 80km depending on how I felt each week and how much time I had for additional runs outside of triathlon training. However, I went through a patch of 3-4 weeks with limited running due to 18 days holidays combined with my “A” triathlon race (just before holidays which required a weeks taper).

Now, triathlon season is over and I can mostly concentrate on running. I have 7 weeks to my marathon but I have 17 quality workouts left. So, if I want to do all quality workouts left in the plan, I will need to do a few weeks with 3 quality workouts. Either that, or I should cut some of the workouts completely.

So, my questions to anyone who has done the Q2 plan before would be:

- Of the 4 types of quality workouts (marathon pace, intervals, tempo, long easy), which would you recommend shortening and/or cutting completely? My thinking is cutting the interval sessions because I think they have probably the least benefit compared to other 4

- Do you think its more important to do the quality workouts at the prescribed paces or get the weekly mileage in?

I’m unsure what I should aim to run at on the actual marathon…my current marathon pace runs are done at 4:14/km and I can complete every workout at this pace but I’m usually at my limit (longest marathon pace run was 17 miles with 12 miles at marathon pace) and can’t imagine doing that pace (or close to it) for a full marathon. Is this a sign that I should lower my expectations or will the taper/adrenaline significantly improve ability to run at that pace over the full distance?

- The longest marathon pace run in the plan is 17 miles with 12 miles at marathon pace…does this sufficiently prep you for doing full marathon at marathon pace? Or should I add in sessions with longer marathon pace runs?

Sorry for the long post…but would be great to hear anyone’s perspective from the Daniels plan…my training seemed to be going very well and I was confident I could go the distance at sub 3 hour pace but now I feel like I won’t be sufficiently prepared in time for it

- Of the 4 types of quality workouts (marathon pace, intervals, tempo, long easy), which would you recommend shortening and/or cutting completely? My thinking is cutting the interval sessions because I think they have probably the least benefit compared to other 4

Intervals.

- Do you think its more important to do the quality workouts at the prescribed paces or get the weekly mileage in?

I’m unsure what I should aim to run at on the actual marathon…my current marathon pace runs are done at 4:14/km and I can complete every workout at this pace but I’m usually at my limit (longest marathon pace run was 17 miles with 12 miles at marathon pace) and can’t imagine doing that pace (or close to it) for a full marathon. Is this a sign that I should lower my expectations or will the taper/adrenaline significantly improve ability to run at that pace over the full distance?

The latter.

- The longest marathon pace run in the plan is 17 miles with 12 miles at marathon pace…does this sufficiently prep you for doing full marathon at marathon pace? Or should I add in sessions with longer marathon pace runs?

12 at MP suffices.

I agree on cutting back the least specific workouts. Cut the intervals, or do them only often enough for maintenance.

Weekly mileage is still the most important factor in endurance. I'd try to keep that up if possible while doing 2 workouts a week.

Is this your first marathon, or your first at this level? Thinking about my goal MP freaked me out beforehand, too, but it ended up feeling pretty manageable on race day. My longest MP run was a bit farther than yours, but I didn't feel like I was really at my limit when I finished it. Then again, I blew up pretty bad the first time I tried it. Seven weeks still gives you some time to increase fitness. Don't lower your expectations yet, but take an honest look at how your next 3-4 weeks of training go and be realistic.

If you're doing Daniels 2Q, do Daniels 2Q. I did longer MP runs, but I didn't do a bunch of other stuff Daniels prescribes. There's lots of different paths to marathon fitness. Stick to one of them at a time.

Thanks guys.

Very helpful replies and puts some of my concerns to the back of my mind for now. Will just have to focus on getting a consistent block of training in over next 4-5 weeks and see how I feel.

I also trusted my watch a bit too much which was not lined up with the miles on the course.

If you use a Garmin, there's a Connect IQ data field Race Screen that rounds the distance when the lap button is pressed:

OP Here. I just ran a 2:59:35 this past Sunday. I once again did Daniels 2Q plan, followed the 55-70 mpw regimen, but added 5 miles onto every single week. Most weeks were 68 miles and four were 75.

Overall I found the plan a lot easier this year. my easy pace was faster and I never felt completely wiped as I did last year. Last year I skipped all stride work (you are supposed to do strides two days a week). I skipped them because I was exhausted. This year I did two every week. However, I did cut the two 10 mile tempo pace workouts down to 8. He calls for 4x2t, 2x1t. I just did the 4x2t.

During the cycle I PB'd a 5k, 10k, and half (17:40, 37:15, 1:25:25). I did not taper for any of those races, and in fact the half was run right after a 75 mile week (and was a pretty hilly course as well). I was shocked I was able to lower my times for these shorter races.

I think just going through the plan once already had made me much more fit. I did run about 50 miles a week over the winter (live in new england, lots of snowy, icy, and single digit runs) and when the weather cleared quickly got up to about 60 miles a week before setting off on the training plan again.

I'm a little bummed though. I've been chasing a BQ for about 5 years now, back when the time to beat was 3:05, and while I did "BQ", the odds of me getting in for 2021 are basically zero, as I wouldn't even get into 2020 with the time I put up.

I'm ok with it though. As I get older the times will relax. I'll make it. I do feel though I'm at about the peak of what I'm capable of running for a marathon. My shorter races indicate I should be able to run a faster marathon, and I am able to run 75 miles a week without injury, but I either lack the natural talent for it or don't have the pain tolerance.

As for a race report, I ran the first half at about 1:28, and I was cruising up through mile 21. After that it was just about hanging on. I was averaging about 7:10 miles and I knew as long as I could hold it I'd still make sub 3. The course had rolling downhills through the first half then just rolling hills the back half. It was a net downhill, but it seemed harder than the completely flat marathons I'd run before.

Anyway, just wanted to update. Sometimes I stumble into old threads and they really help with my training.

Congratulations!!!

Your training effort was finally rewarded with your goal time.

Nice job and don’t give up on the BQ.

Get yourself to a flat Marathon. Do the same training cycle 2Q and just mix in a few extra miles at MP when you can. You’ll run sub3 if you stay consistent and don’t get greedy.