Is East African Distance Runnng Superiority a myth & actually fuelled by EPO

With the WADA lab now destined for Kenya, Coevett has not taken this well. He is now ramping up his conspiracy theories to frightening insanity......I mean long posts with zero facts!!... I fear for his mental health if you take to account his age......The more Kenya is having a bit of success in the doping fight, the more insane he goes. Well more kenyan success is coming.......

A broken clock is correct twice a day. You wanted me to narrow my criticism of Epstein's book to his theories of Kenyas. His theories why so-called blacks in western hemisphere sprint better than the rest of the world can be explained by historians or sociologists, not genes. I see you did not want to address his theory of latent sickle cell anemia in US blacks regarding performances in races longer than 800m. Why do you want to defend him, Epstein? Blacks, as a race in western world are as much or more a social construct than genes/biology. US blacks on average have app. 20% white European DNA. Blacks in the islands in western hemisphere are similar. If 20% is the average, there are so-called blacks in western hemisphere with significantly higher percentage of white European DNA whom Epstein simply classifies as black. Epstein is not able to justify why so-called blacks in western hemisphere are not slower sprinters than western Africans living in western Africa.

Much of what interests posters on letsrun are Epstein's theories of white people in relation to blacks in athletics. In track 100m sprinting, it seems as if top white US athletes who would be top 100m sprinters moved on to activities other than 100m sprinting after 1960's. First black person who won gold in 100m in 1932, Eddie Tolan. Whites were still winning 100m medals after Eddie Tolan's gold medal.

Are we disagreeing with Epstein's flaws? You look definitely no more well versed than Epstein if you site Epstein.

Asking why white people moved away from 100m sprinting is also asking why white people moved away from boxing. There is no reason Epstein's analysis or theories are not as equally flawed regarding Kenyans.

All what I was saying regarding western hemisphere comes back around to Kenya. From 1936 through 1956, US men were the best 800m runners in the world. Through 1989 or 1990, US and Kenya had relatively the same number of sub-1:44 800m men. It's not even close now. Some or most on letsrun would say it's possibly due to Kenyan's taking PED's. There is an easier answer: most US 400m men competing for NCAA D1 or D2 universities with sub-47 400m PB do not want to be 800m runners. Each US sub-47 400m runner who chooses not to compete as an 800m runner has his own reasons. Another reason: through 1950's being a professional American football player or professional basketball player did not pay very much. It is highly likely that some would be elite US 800m men are pursing basketball or Am. football currently.

olyrun wrote:

This is a very good post. In it highlights the confusion around EPO use. It does increase power, speed or endurance. What it can do is increase the rate of recovery. That is why it was so important for cyclist in stage races where recovery is critical. But in single day efforts it is not effective because you can naturally maximize your recovery. What is unfortunate is that these African athletes taking EPO are getting no real benefit.

EPO does no such thing. Recovery comes from fitness.

Wasn't Epstein's Black sprinter superiority concept based on the work of Yiannis Pitsiladis who points out that they (some of West African heritage) have a very small number of so called white fast twitch fibers, a genetic rarity giving a speed advantage?

No, the testing was done by Michele Ferrari, who invented this mythology of the 6.7 watts per kilo 'threshold' which everyone believes to this day. In actual fact, and by his own numbers it was 6.7 at VO2 max.

You see the difference? It't quite big isn't it? I know you're not very good with numbers, but even you can see it's about 10% exaggeration?

In other words, despite all the drugs, Lance Armstrong and all the other doped riders were sustaining normal power outputs. And now we have a huge amount of data to demonstrate this.

The old school doping obsession which you and brojos and other journalists and most posters here have is part of the drug problem. It just makes the whole mess evern worse.

JonO. wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Do you really think the team didn't test the improvement EPO have to Armstrong. They would really keep giving him EPO if it didn't improve him. Ridiculous

No, the testing was done by Michele Ferrari, who invented this mythology of the 6.7 watts per kilo 'threshold' which everyone believes to this day. In actual fact, and by his own numbers it was 6.7 at VO2 max.

You see the difference? It't quite big isn't it? I know you're not very good with numbers, but even you can see it's about 10% exaggeration?

In other words, despite all the drugs, Lance Armstrong and all the other doped riders were sustaining normal power outputs. And now we have a huge amount of data to demonstrate this.

ENOUGH is ENOUGH JO! Take a look at these power numbers from Tour winners over the 90s & 00s:

☝️ Look at those numbers from confirmed EPO users; Ullrich, Riis, Pantani & Armstrong! (Indurain has officially never admitted to doping but Concini was the team doctor with Banesto during Indurain's tenure there).

Pantani was known to be a monster EPO user jacking his crit to polycythemia levels of 60%! He was even thrown out out of the 99 Giro for exceeding the Hct safety limits! So, please explain how EPO-induced high Hct levels didn't push these incredible power #s up with these high-profile GT contenders.

JonO. wrote:

Wasn't Epstein's Black sprinter superiority concept based on the work of Yiannis Pitsiladis who points out that they (some of West African heritage) have a very small number of so called white fast twitch fibers, a genetic rarity giving a speed advantage?

I don't have Epstein's book in front of me. I read it while I waited for someone at a B&N about five years ago.

Muscle twitch test analysis is an unproven theory. Athletes are tested, usually between ages of 17 to 32. We do not test infants. Infants do not have muscle biopsies. Some say sprinters who are afraid to log miles because they do not want to turn fast muscle to slow muscle are delusional. I believe sprint athletes who say jogging makes them slow. We do not know if how one lives one's life determines muscle twitch results or influences results of muscle biopsy tests while one is in their late teens or twenties. If you are going to try to narrow things down to a particular western African tribe, one has to name the gene. Do all males with direct origins to this one tribe sprint sub-9.90 100 metres? Of course not!

Look at which events US men have won most gold track medals since 1896: 1) 400 metres, 2) 400 metres hurdles, 3) 110 metres hurdles, 4) 200 metres & 5) 100 metres. These results are irrespective of race or ethnic origin. Men in the five stated events were a bit taller than average. US men, I am sure since 1896 trained in the most modern method.

For everyone looking for biological or physiological reasons to demonstrate why groups of athletes do well, you will find more solid answers looking at relevant history or social factors. As I stated in a round about manner in my previous post on this thread: instead of trying to figure out why so many Kenyan men are racing sub-1:44 800 metres, we should be asking why are so few USA men racing sub-1:44 800 metres, irrespective of race, or ethnicity.

As I keep saying, those are MADE UP NUMBERS. Lance was NOT 6.97 watts per kilo on Alpe d'Huez, more like 6.0 a normal power output for an elite cyclist.

Stop spouting the same old school pseudoscience. EPO IS NOT A PERFORMANCE ENHANCER.

We have a THEROMOREGULATORY LIMIT. A maxmium amount of heat production that can't be exceed in a race. The pseudoscientific dogma ignores this even though it's basic physiology. You are supposed to believe that with rEPO you can increase your oxygen uptake by 10%. THAT IS RIDICULOUS.

THERE ARE NO MAGIC POTIONS THAT GIVE SUPER HUMAN STRENGTH.

But that is what we are supposed to believe. Wheh I state it like that, it looks like a stupid belief doesn't it? Because that's what it is, a stupid belief. A superstitious belief compounded by pretend science to make it look like a sophsisticated evaluation.

I agree, muscle biopsies are not likely to be reliable due to the difficulty in getting an accurate muscle fiber profile and the invasive nature of the protocol.

Yiannis Pitsiladis is the man to ask about specific genes and sprinting, it's his life's work.

Muscle fibers don't change from fast to slow twitch, but there are changes in myosin expression which is where the myth comes from.

I also agree with your point about social factors.

" instead of trying to figure out why so many Kenyan men are racing sub-1:44 800 metres, we should be asking why are so few USA men racing sub-1:44 800 metres, irrespective of race, or ethnicity"

Absolutely. But I see a problem in the way 800 is coached in every country. Again there is a World expert on the subject who doesn't get the recognition for his ideas: Brother Colm O'Connell. But then I suppose Clyde Hart doesn't get the respect he deserves for what he has done for US 400m running? Maybe it's because these people just get on with the job without making a fuss?

GBnothingWithoutFarah wrote:

With the WADA lab now destined for Kenya, Coevett has not taken this well. He is now ramping up his conspiracy theories to frightening insanity......I mean long posts with zero facts!!... I fear for his mental health if you take to account his age......The more Kenya is having a bit of success in the doping fight, the more insane he goes. Well more kenyan success is coming.......

He is getting more delirious by the day. And I’ve noticed quite a few of the news outlets that breathlessly reported superstar Kalalei’s bust have been silent or lukewarm about the accreditation of this lab, the lack of being one of their biggest gripes. Oh, well. Looks like they’ll have to face Kenya in Tokyo after all. And Kenyans tend to over perform in the Far East.

JonO. wrote:

olyrun wrote:

This is a very good post. In it highlights the confusion around EPO use. It does increase power, speed or endurance. What it can do is increase the rate of recovery. That is why it was so important for cyclist in stage races where recovery is critical. But in single day efforts it is not effective because you can naturally maximize your recovery. What is unfortunate is that these African athletes taking EPO are getting no real benefit.

EPO does no such thing. Recovery comes from fitness.

People who take it know it does. It also increases" fitness".

Yes, your belief is stupid.

Lab results please!

Lab results? Look at the average speed Lance did on Alpe d'Huez. 22 kmh on an 8.3% gradient. That is not 6.97 watt per kilo. It's not 520 watts. Those are made up numbers. Believing them is not wise, it's naive.

JonO. wrote:

Lab results? Look at the average speed Lance did on Alpe d'Huez. 22 kmh on an 8.3% gradient. That is not 6.97 watt per kilo. It's not 520 watts. Those are made up numbers. Believing them is not wise, it's naive.

Irrelevant. EPO made him capable of sustaining higher power for longer than anyone else for 7 straight years.

That's what you are dancing around .

Lab results please!

And his rivals were using the same drugs.

He was better than them. It's dishonest to punish him for the state that sport has got itself into.

It's inevitable that the same mentality has been transposed to Kenya.

Talking about cleaning up the sport is disingenuous when you backhandedly support the dope doctors by agreeing with their superstitious beliefs. I don't trust any journalist or scientist who spouts such rhetoric.

Brojos will not engage directly on this issue but skirt around it to inflame the click bait mentality.

Weldon and Robert Johnson, show some integrity and address the points I have raised.

JonO. wrote:

And his rivals were using the same drugs.

He was better than them. It's dishonest to punish him for the state that sport has got itself into.

It's inevitable that the same mentality has been transposed to Kenya.

Talking about cleaning up the sport is disingenuous when you backhandedly support the dope doctors by agreeing with their superstitious beliefs. I don't trust any journalist or scientist who spouts such rhetoric.

Brojos will not engage directly on this issue but skirt around it to inflame the click bait mentality.

Weldon and Robert Johnson, show some integrity and address the points I have raised.

They have. You're wrong and they are tired of refuting your nonsense.

JonO. wrote:

Lab results? Look at the average speed Lance did on Alpe d'Huez. 22 kmh on an 8.3% gradient. That is not 6.97 watt per kilo. It's not 520 watts. Those are made up numbers. Believing them is not wise, it's naive.

C'mon man...quit clowning around with everyone (you pop on here every 3 - 4 months with your same line of nonsense). 24 out of the top 35 fastest times up Alpe d'Huez are involving riders implicated in doping. And only 3 riders in the top 35 posted their time in the pre-90s, presumably before the EPO abuse era:

And here's Lance talking to the college kids at CU a couple of years ago on the massive benefits ("10%") he received from EPO.

Why don't you contact LA and tell him about your scientific breakthrough, and that EPO/blood doping had nothing to do with his 7 Tour victories...if he agrees we'll all eat crow & crown you science expert. ?

And lots of much slower times were recorded by EPO doped riders too. Weather conditions and racing conditions.

22 kmh on Alpe d'Huez is not 6.97 watt per kilo not anywhere close. To keep stating that it is is just compounding the stupidity. And it is fantastically stupid.

Tour de Dope wrote:

Why don't you contact LA and tell him about your scientific breakthrough, and that EPO/blood doping had nothing to do with his 7 Tour victories...if he agrees we'll all eat crow & crown you science expert. ?

How would that work?

"Hey Lance, you know your coach Michele Ferrari told you that your threshold had to be 6.7 watts per kilo and that you had to get your hematocrit up to 50 to get there? Well he was wrong. Your threshold was actually 6.0 even after you doped?"

I can't see that conversation going well, can you? Lance will maybe figure it out in time, when those of us who have a better understanding how how power stats are made up, manipulated and misinterpreted, reach a critical mass and the rush to find the next (fanstasy) wonder drug is on.