Hold up hold up... as part of this range, we need to factor in climate tolerance range. Yuki is the GROAT. Case closed.
Hold up hold up... as part of this range, we need to factor in climate tolerance range. Yuki is the GROAT. Case closed.
Hardloper wrote:
Alan Webb has slightly better PRs at 800 and 10k than Said Aouita. His RANGE also extends to triathlon where he finished on 3rd in a World Cup event, plus he never got caught telling his athletes to take drugs.
Aouita's PR relative to the WR at the time is better than Webb's.
Which one? wrote:
The GROAT is defined either by:
1) absolute times
for 1), the answer is Bekele.
I can agree with this as it currently stands. However, what would Mo have to run to overtake Bekele? 3:28 is much better than 3:32. So would a 2:04:30 cut it? 2:04:00? 2:03:30? The line has to be drawn somewhere.
Additionally, mentioning times between 1500m and marathon are irrelevant. They should only be used in the case of tie breakers. Range, for all intents and purposes, is 1500m time and marathon time. 800m time could be used but no top marathon guy has an 800m time more respectable than their 1500m time.
Big Hawk Chief.
3:57 mile in 1876 (a record that would stand for 80 years)
and sub 24hour 100 miler.
Great addition! I was not aware of Wolde running the 4x400, 800 and 1500 in Melbourne. That is some serious range thru the years. However, his marks were discreet at those distances. Mamede ran 10 second faster in the 800 and the 4x400 was 20 seconds faster. Portugal ran 3:10 in 1972 versus Ethiopia's rather pedestrian 3:30 in 1956. Either way, 4x400 and three Olympic medals including gold in the marathon is a feat second to none in our sport. Cheers!
Ever heard of Ashton Eaton?
ThatAverageRunner wrote:
Which one? wrote:
The GROAT is defined either by:
1) absolute times
for 1), the answer is Bekele.
I can agree with this as it currently stands. However, what would Mo have to run to overtake Bekele? 3:28 is much better than 3:32. So would a 2:04:30 cut it? 2:04:00? 2:03:30? The line has to be drawn somewhere.
Additionally, mentioning times between 1500m and marathon are irrelevant. They should only be used in the case of tie breakers. Range, for all intents and purposes, is 1500m time and marathon time. 800m time could be used but no top marathon guy has an 800m time more respectable than their 1500m time.
My personal vote would be under 2:04:30, under 2:04 and it's case closed. Totally subjective though.
Hardloper wrote:
Alan Webb has slightly better PRs at 800 and 10k than Said Aouita.
That's wrong.
Hardloper wrote:
Alan Webb has slightly better PRs at 800 and 10k than Said Aouita. His RANGE also extends to triathlon where he finished on 3rd in a World Cup event, plus he never got caught telling his athletes to take drugs.
Hardloper, I like you mate but the first part isn't right, though the 2nd part definitely is (until Webb takes a position as head a nation's distance program).
800 Metres 1:43.84 Heusden-Zolder (BEL) 28 JUL 2007
1000 Metres 2:20.32 New York, NY (USA) 11 JUN 2005
1500 Metres 3:30.54 Paris (FRA) 06 JUL 2007
One Mile 3:46.91 Brasschaat (BEL) 21 JUL 2007 AR
Two Miles 8:11.48 Eugene (USA) 04 JUN 2005
5000 Metres 13:10.86 Berlin (GER) 04 SEP 2005
10,000 Metres 27:34.72 Palo Alto (USA) 30 APR 2006
5 Kilometres 13:36 San José (USA) 25 NOV 2010
10 Miles Road 49:23 St. Paul (USA) 07 OCT 2012
Said Aouita Personal best(s)
800 meters: 1:43.86[1]
1500 meters: 3:29.46[1]
Mile: 3:46.76[1]
3000 meters: 7:29.45[1]
2-mile: 8:13.45[1]
5000 meters: 12:58.39[1]
10,000 meters: 27:26.11[1]
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Samuel DeChamplain wrote:
ok let me make a list
I=indoors r=road
Bekele
1500-3:32
2000i-4:49(converted to 3:49.4 indoors)
3000-7:25-7:30i
2miles.i-8:04
5000-12:37-12:49i
10000-26:17
half-60:09(beat mo)
marathon-2:03:03
Geb
800i-1:49
1500-3:31i
mile-3:52
2000i-4:52
3000-7:25-7:26i
2smiles-8:01-8:04i
5000-12:39-12:50i
10000-26:22-27:02r
half-58:54
marathon-2:03:59
Mo
100-12.9
800-1:48?
1500-3:28-3:39i
mile-3:56-3:57i
2000-5:06
3000-7:32-7:33i
2mile-8:04i
5000-12:53-13:09i
10000-26:46
half-59:32
marathon-2:06:22
feel free to add more to this list
Ian Stewart said that he has seen Mo run a 1:45 800m time trial
The world also saw him run a 13 second 100m in Superstars.
It is true though, as we saw with El G, since the early 90s top distance runners have discovered the ability to maintain almost sprinting speed to fistances from the 1500 to Marathon. I wonder what training breakthrough enabled it?
Coevett wrote:
It is true though, as we saw with El G, since the early 90s top distance runners have discovered the ability to maintain almost sprinting speed to fistances from the 1500 to Marathon. I wonder what training breakthrough enabled it?
It rhymes with Mo
LM wrote:
Alone Ranger wrote:
I have to make a case for Kipchoge: 7:27 (not far from either Geb or Bek)and 12:46, which are as good as 3:28; and clearly, somewhere south of 2:02:50 for a marathon. He is in a league with both Geb and Bekele here, with a comparable 3K and better marathon by far. If 50K were an Olympic distance he would dominate that even more.
His marathon is not better "by far". In fact, it's worse. 2:03:03 vs 2:03:05.
"but but but conditions" and "Breaking2".
Fair.
But now we are in the realm of speculation. We don't know exactly what breaking 2 is worth, we don't know exactly what Kipchoge can do in marathon. However, the same is true for Bekele, and if you're going to speculate down faster for Kipchoge you have to do so for Bekele.
Injured/Past Prime Bekele that struggled to run higher 26:xx on the track was suited enough to the marathon to produce a 2:03:03. I think this makes it pretty clear Bekele is a runner that translates very well to the marathon. With that in mind, I assert that Bekele of today is a MUCH weaker runner than Bekele of 10 years ago. If "modern" Bekele can run 2:03 flat, you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that a Bekele that was 30s+ better at 10k wouldn't have been able to run something high 2:01s at a minimum.
Is it definitive that these older marathoners like bekele could actually have run faster marathons in their 20s?
I'm not convinced as these track times were pre-passport era and analysis showed likely widespread blood doping at the time.
None of the new generation of 20 something east african marathoners are running 2-01.
Boots on the ground. wrote:
LM wrote:
His marathon is not better "by far". In fact, it's worse. 2:03:03 vs 2:03:05.
"but but but conditions" and "Breaking2".
Fair.
But now we are in the realm of speculation. We don't know exactly what breaking 2 is worth, we don't know exactly what Kipchoge can do in marathon. However, the same is true for Bekele, and if you're going to speculate down faster for Kipchoge you have to do so for Bekele.
Injured/Past Prime Bekele that struggled to run higher 26:xx on the track was suited enough to the marathon to produce a 2:03:03. I think this makes it pretty clear Bekele is a runner that translates very well to the marathon. With that in mind, I assert that Bekele of today is a MUCH weaker runner than Bekele of 10 years ago. If "modern" Bekele can run 2:03 flat, you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that a Bekele that was 30s+ better at 10k wouldn't have been able to run something high 2:01s at a minimum.
Is it definitive that these older marathoners like bekele could actually have run faster marathons in their 20s?
I'm not convinced as these track times were pre-passport era and analysis showed likely widespread blood doping at the time.
None of the new generation of 20 something east african marathoners are running 2-01.
post passport era Bekele did 7:28, 26:25, 12:50 and 2:03, interestingly outside that one Paris race there has only been two other times since anyone was within 3 seconds of that 12:50(kipchoge 2010 and Soi 2013), and only one man other than himself within 20 of the 26:25(Rupp).
gotta give Kipchoge credit too, 7:27, 12:51 and 26:53 and 2:03, still pretty consistent through the years....
Samuel DeChamplain wrote:
post passport era Bekele did 7:28, 26:25, 12:50 and 2:03, interestingly outside that one Paris race there has only been two other times since anyone was within 3 seconds of that 12:50(kipchoge 2010 and Soi 2013), and only one man other than himself within 20 of the 26:25(Rupp).
gotta give Kipchoge credit too, 7:27, 12:51 and 26:53 and 2:03, still pretty consistent through the years....
Not entirely correct. The ABP came about in mid 2009, so that year served as a starting point. Given that very little in the way of blood testing is done in Ethiopia it would be years before they got a clear ABP picture. After 2009 his bests are 7:40, 12:55 (in the fast St Denis race), 26:43.16 and 2:03. He has been very inconsistent, but he is old and Renato says his lower limbs are stuffed.
Moby wrote:
from 3'28 for 1500, now 2'06 in the marathon.
Surely Bekele (3'32), Kipchoge (3'33), and Geb (3'33) are all in the conversation, but Farah has run quicker than all of them at 1500m.
I think if Farah can get to 2'04 he undisputedly has it, but not quite yet.
Nope. But I have wondered in the past why Farah wasn't a 1500/5000m specialist as opposed to a 5000/10000m specialist. I think it was a preference though knowing he eventually wanted to tackle the marathon.
Stopcecil! wrote:
Moby wrote:
from 3'28 for 1500, now 2'06 in the marathon.
Surely Bekele (3'32), Kipchoge (3'33), and Geb (3'33) are all in the conversation, but Farah has run quicker than all of them at 1500m.
I think if Farah can get to 2'04 he undisputedly has it, but not quite yet.
Nope. But I have wondered in the past why Farah wasn't a 1500/5000m specialist as opposed to a 5000/10000m specialist. I think it was a preference though knowing he eventually wanted to tackle the marathon.
Kiprop
Geb's run second all-time in the indoor 1500 m. & 2:03
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Coevett wrote:
It is true though, as we saw with El G, since the early 90s top distance runners have discovered the ability to maintain almost sprinting speed to fistances from the 1500 to Marathon. I wonder what training breakthrough enabled it?
It rhymes with Mo
Hahahahahahaha....
I got it! Coe rhymes with Mo. Ironically Coevett replied and it made my brain realise he was referring to Seb Coe.