Peter Elliot the last non-African male to attempt to break a mid/long distance record (1990)?

Eugene, Oregon, home of the University of Oregon, is anything but sunny.

Oh, the language that comes out of your computer. Don't talk up Elliot's race as if it were something special compared to Alan Webb's mile, the fastest in the world in the past thirteen years, indeed, possibly the second-fastest ever clean time to Cram's wr. Joe Falcon won that race in 3:49. He was already better on that day. Too bad that Elliot had been injured beforehand, but even worse that Joe Falcon sustained an achilles injury and never realized his vast potential. He had won both 1500 and xc titles in the NCAA.

Coevett wrote:

zcxvcxvcx wrote:

All of a sudden you want to suggest that Elliot's race was more distinguished somehow than Alan Webb's when Elliott finished second in a race that was won 2.4 seconds behind what Webb ran. Make no mistake about it: Alan Webb could have run 3:45 with better pacers and more of a race atmosphere.

No you moron, I'm simply defending myself (and Elliot) against accusations that his Bislett run wasn't a serious world record attempt. The world record in 1990 was 3:46, when Alan Webb ran his time it was 3:43. Jesus.

What do you mean when you write that “even Ventolin thought” it was possible.? That is like saying “even Ghost of Igloi thought the stock market would plummet. “

Webb may not have won a lot of international races or performed well in international championships (he won a lot of U.S. champs), but this is a guy among the greatest of all time in range: 1:43.8, 3:30,3:46.91,7:38?, 13:10,27:35; and his best mile is the fastest in the world since 2005, the biological passport era.

zxcvzxcvxc wrote:

Oh, the language that comes out of your computer. Don't talk up Elliot's race as if it were something special compared to Alan Webb's mile, the fastest in the world in the past thirteen years, indeed, possibly the second-fastest ever clean time to Cram's wr. Joe Falcon won that race in 3:49. He was already better on that day. Too bad that Elliot had been injured beforehand, but even worse that Joe Falcon sustained an achilles injury and never realized his vast potential. He had won both 1500 and xc titles in the NCAA.

Coevett wrote:

No you moron, I'm simply defending myself (and Elliot) against accusations that his Bislett run wasn't a serious world record attempt. The world record in 1990 was 3:46, when Alan Webb ran his time it was 3:43. Jesus.

What is wrong with you? I never said Webb's run was inferior to Elliott's, it clearly wasn't, I'm responding to your claim that Webb's run was more of an attempt on the world record.

What is wrong with you?

kettlepot wrote:

What is wrong with you?

And what is wrong with you?

zxcvzxcvxc wrote:

Oh, the language that comes out of your computer. Don't talk up Elliot's race as if it were something special compared to Alan Webb's mile, the fastest in the world in the past thirteen years, indeed, possibly the second-fastest ever clean time to Cram's wr. Joe Falcon won that race in 3:49. He was already better on that day. Too bad that Elliot had been injured beforehand, but even worse that Joe Falcon sustained an achilles injury and never realized his vast potential. He had won both 1500 and xc titles in the NCAA.

Coevett wrote:

No you moron, I'm simply defending myself (and Elliot) against accusations that his Bislett run wasn't a serious world record attempt. The world record in 1990 was 3:46, when Alan Webb ran his time it was 3:43. Jesus.

Elliot was better than Joe Falcon.

Why didn't Webb ever break 3:30 for 1500m? If he could have run 3:45 he should have been able to run under 3:30 with ease.

AreYouAutistic wrote:

kettlepot wrote:

What is wrong with you?

And what is wrong with you?

What is wrong with you both?

Coevett wrote:

Amazing to think Cruz was forced to make a personal weeping apology to Flo Jo and Griffith Joyner after accusing them of being on peds at Seoul :

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-09-30/sports/sp-3145_1_joaquim-cruz

I wonder if the LA Times writer - Mike Downey - still think Flo Jo was clean?

That guy invented White Knight syndrome. Hard to believe he wrote that seriously.

Poderd wrote:

What do you mean when you write that “even Ventolin thought” it was possible.? That is like saying “even Ghost of Igloi thought the stock market would plummet. “

The quote was clearly Ventolin a few years back when he was still quite sane. He didn't even hate Coe (or Deano!) at that point, and I think his intrinsified Ryun pbs were still only ~1:41 and ~3:28.

Elliott clearly was looking to be in shape to run sub 3:30 in the summer of 1990. He'd absolutely destroyed Kirochi and other top East Africans in the Commonwealths (Kirochi would win silver behind Morceli at the world championships the next year) and then ran 1:42 early in the European summer season, which must have made him the 5th or 6th fastest in history at that point. Unfortunately, he tore his calf muscle right after setting that 800m time in Seville. The fact he came back the same season to win silver at the European championships shows what might have been.

Elliott was certainly the 'closest yet furthest from glory' out of any British runner I think. Even what he did achieve, which is brilliant by any standards, is overshadowed by the Coe, Ovett, Cram triumphs and only athletics fans from the 80s know who he is today. A fit Elliott could have won the double at Seoul. He lost the world championship 800m Gold in 87 to a future multiple child rapist who almost certainly was rocket fuelled. In 1990 he was in the form to be the last man in history to break middle-distance world records clean, but tore his calf muscle.

He made the wrong decision to leave it so late to turn full-time however. I don't know what the circumstances of his life were that made him want to continue as a full time steel worker for most of his career, but it was surely a bad mistake.

Relying on Ventolin as a source of evidence to support anything is not very convincing. The guy is a nut case with countless agendas. It has been a much better place to discuss ideas and thoughts, without his presence, in the last month or so. Anyone who believes Ryun could run 1:38 and 3:24 cannot offer a realistic assessment of what someone can run.

No doubt Elliott was capable of faster than his 3:32 high pb, but talk of threatening Aouita’s 1500wr is hyperbole in my opinion. He wasn’t as good as Ovett in 83, who ran 3:30.77 in windy conditions, and probably could have run 3:30 flat or just under on that day in perfect conditions.

I’d give Elliott 3:31.0 in 1990, give or take a few tenths. He should have won the European title.

I have to respectfully disagree with some of this.

Ventolin has hated Coe for at least 8 years on here, and will make someone faster than Coe wherever he can. I’m pretty sure the post quoted above doesn’t pre date that. In any case, it’s best to dismiss anything that Ventolin purports.

Secondly, I don’t believe Elliott could have done the double in Seoul if fit, if everyone else turned up fit as well.

88 was pre EPO days, so whatever one thinks of lax testing in Kenya over recent years, with no other supporting evidence against him, one has to see Ereng as clean. He had a few other great seasons, so his win in Seoul was not a fluke. At his best he was a better 800m runner than Elliott in my opinion, despite a pb a tenth or so slower. Cruz at his best was a better 2 lap runner than either of them. He was not the same athlete in 88 as he had been in 84, although it is difficult to know whether that was due to a specific injury that year affecting his build up, or just general slowing down due to age.

I think a fit Elliott would still have been battling with a fit Aouita for the bronze.

Certainly in the 1500m, a peak Elliott would have got past Rono, but then a fit Cram would have beaten both of them. Had a fit Aouita, Bile or Coe been in the final, as could have happened, then I don’t think Elliott medals.

So, of those that were actually there, in the condition they were in, Elliott (without the injury he was carrying) could have won bronze bronze n the 8 and gold in the 15.

The whole ‘working full time’ argument is a bit of a non issue for me. There were quite a few athletes that also worked at that time. Cram and Ovett didn’t work, as far as I know, yet Coe was always either in full time studies or working in various capacities at the Sports Council throughout his career. Indeed, the only year he didn’t work was in 1980, in the lead up to Moscow. He maintains that he needed another distraction in his life.

I’m pretty sure that Elliott worked part time for a bit before finally giving up work. Im not convinced Elliott would have been any better had he not worked. He was never a part time athlete, he was always a full time athlete who also held down a job.

It's not the most accurate of articles. For a start, Cram was not 'pre-selected' over 1500m for the Seoul Olympics.

The policy was that the first 2 past the post would be selected at the Trials, and the 3rd spot was a discretionary one, to be chosen by a board of 6 selectors.

With hindsight the tabloid press were irresponsible singling out Elliott, but the system that year was appalling (for a country like Britain) and there was definitely a political agenda to keep Coe out. What the article also fails to address, which is the real crux of the issue as far as I'm concerned about the whole selection fiasco that year, is that Coe WAS selected to run the 800 in Seoul, in the 3rd discretionary spot. That decision was later overturned, by a meeting of the entire board of the BAAB the next day! So in essence, they did make a choice to replace Coe by Elliott, which I think was the wrong decision.

The trials were in early August, 7 weeks before the Olympic 1500 final. One cannot predict when one will go down with a chest infection. Better to have temporary illness 7 weeks before a major race than in an Olympic arena. The selection policy was stupid, but it is totally wrong when some suggest Coe did not make the criteria. He achieved the qualifying time in the 800 & 1500m, and was therefore up for the 3rd discretionary position in both events. His class and consistency at major champs should have been taken into consideration, something vindicated by going on to rank No.1 in Britain over both distances the following year. Whereas it would have been difficult to justify the 3rd bearth at 1500 over Cram, he had a better claim to the 3rd spot over 800m than Elliott.

In 88, Coe had already won in London and in 2 other races, beaten Ereng (who went on to win the Olympic title) twice, & was only narrowly beaten, early season, by Bile in Lausanne. Elliott had come 2nd in Verona and then came 6th in Zurich. Coe also ran faster than Elliott had run, with 1:43.9 in Koblenz, while still recovering from a chest infection, still a month away from the Olympic final. And most importantly, Coe WAS chosen for the 3rd spot over Elliott by the official selectors, unanimously, 6-0, something that many at the time, certainly amongst the general sporting public, were not made aware of. It was only the admin men at a meeting of the full board executive the day after, that overturned that decision, 11-10. There was a set agenda to keep Coe out. That a political consideration was favoured over an athletic one was unforgivable and indefensible.

To be fair to Cram, he was still ranked world no 1 in 88, despite no medal, and he had done more than Coe (out injured all season) in 87, even though it was a bad year for Cram. He deserved the 3rd discretionary place over 1500m, although I don't think he should have doubled up as he was carrying an injury. However, Coe should have gone in the 800 not Elliott. And if the selectors had 'selected' rather than adopt a short lived policy that didn't suit U.K. Athletics, then Cram, Elliott and Coe could all have run the 1500m, and Crabb would have been left at home.

Wouldn't that have been a massive tragedy if Eliot didn’t run Seoul. 2nd in the1500m and just missing a medal in the 800m.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Wouldn't that have been a massive tragedy if Eliot didn’t run Seoul. 2nd in the1500m and just missing a medal in the 800m.

I never said he shouldn’t have been in Seoul. Ideally, if the selection policy wasn’t what it was, but had been the same system it had always been in the past, Elliott and Coe could both have doubled up.

With the selection policy as it was, Elliott should only have run the 1500m and Coe should have run the 800m, as the selectors advised.

Both Cram and Elliott went into the Games carrying injuries. Allowing athletes to double up when injured is stupid, and I think Cram in particular was foolish and a bit selfish to even attempt a double when he knew he was carrying an injury for at least 3 weeks before the Games.

Had both Cram and Elliott focused on the 1500m, it would have given them an extra 4 or 5 days to improve their injuries/rest, and both would probably have upgraded their positions in the 1500m.

BUMP!!!

BUMP!!