Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

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7 years ago 03/30/2018 3:37am EDT

re: Danny Archer

Danny Archer wrote:
Khalid Boulami. A name I haven't heard it a while.
He had strong results in the 5000m during the mid to late 90's.

That's right Danny A...he was a smoker with a 12:53.41 PB! He's also one of 10 Moroccans to run at the exclusive sub-13 level! (El G, Saïd Aouita, Ismaïl Sghyr, Abdelati Iguider, Hicham Bellani, Mohammed Mourhit, Brahim Lahlafi, Abderrahim Goumri & Salah Hissou).

I like the way these guys raced the 5000...they always showed up with their game face on ready to duke it out with anybody. They also weren't afraid to go toe to toe with the East Africans.

I like Moroccan runners! ?

7 years ago 03/30/2018 3:51am EDT

re: ukathleticscoach

ukathleticscoach wrote:
Check the 1984 Olympic 1500m entries and see what they both thought.

He pushed Crammie to the wire in 85 and Crammie that year was as good if not better than Coe had been

7 years ago 03/30/2018 4:01am EDT

re: I like Moroccan Runners

I like Moroccan Runners wrote:
Danny Archer wrote:
Khalid Boulami. A name I haven't heard it a while.
He had strong results in the 5000m during the mid to late 90's.
That's right Danny A...he was a smoker with a 12:53.41 PB! He's also one of 10 Moroccans to run at the exclusive sub-13 level! (El G, Saïd Aouita, Ismaïl Sghyr, Abdelati Iguider, Hicham Bellani, Mohammed Mourhit, Brahim Lahlafi, Abderrahim Goumri & Salah Hissou).
I like the way these guys raced the 5000...they always showed up with their game face on ready to duke it out with anybody. They also weren't afraid to go toe to toe with the East Africans.
I like Moroccan runners! ?

You've really got to lay off those all nighters in thiner air. Only one Moroccan has done sub 13 since the ABP, and that was on one occasion, just. Fast Moroccans were a phenomenon of poor testing.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 4:29am EDT

re: Subway Surfers Addiction

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
You've really got to lay off those all nighters in thiner air. Only one Moroccan has done sub 13 since the ABP, and that was on one occasion, just. Fast Moroccans were a phenomenon of poor testing.

Yeah...I know; it was Iguider a few years back (barely - 12:59.25). I look it at this way, it's not as if others were doping pre-ABP era. There were some insane performances back then by a lot of athletes from other countries as well.

Here Subway; a cool racing video of El G - maybe it'll motivate you to get some speed in on that bad wheel of your's. ☺

https://youtu.be/DIuCgQJWxws

I like Moroccan runners! ?

7 years ago 03/30/2018 4:36am EDT

re: I like Moroccan Runners

Edit: "as if others *weren't* doping pre-ABP era."

I like Moroccan runners. ?

7 years ago 03/30/2018 6:54am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
Star wrote:
Aouita's 1500m PR was in 1985.
Coe's 1500m PR was in 1986.
Seems like they peaked at about the same time.
Nope. Not many people think that Coe peaked in 1986. He ran his pb in 86 after his dad was furious at him for running a bad race in the 1500 in Stuttgart. I think I remember reading that he told Seb something like 'now go out and run the definitive 1500m of your life'.
Coe had bad pacing when he was at his peak in 81, and before. I think in his autobiography he claims that there were a couple of times he could have run at least 3:28 with decent pacing and quite a few here agree with that.
He did reach his peak again, or close to it in the 1500 in LA and Zurich. Unfortunately the pacing was off yet again in Zurich post LA,but he looked capable of running well under 3:30 that night, as his performance in LA suggested also.

+1. I wholeheartedly agree with all this.

Just one thing to add. He was actually in great form at end of 86 too, it was the first season since 81 that he actually managed to reach end of season and not have to curtail it short due to injury or illness as he had done in 79, 80, 82, 83, 84 and 85!

He probably ran an even worse tactical race in the Stuttgart 1500 final than he did in the Moscow 800! I’ve estimated he ran approximately 25m extra on the bends in that 1500 final. With that taken into consideration, his closing speed over last 800 and 400 was better than Cram’s, but you can’t give someone like Cram that sort of advantage in a 3:41 race.

The 3:29 in Rieti a week later underlined what sort of form he was in, but even that had dreadfully uneven pacing. The rabbit went through first 400 in 53 low, with Coe having the good sense to keep off it a bit. Even so, his first 3 laps went 54.0, 58.0, 56.1. Such a discrepancy of 4 secs is not an efficient was of running your best time. He also had more than 400m with no drafting, and but for Chesire strangely speeding up and going in front of Coe just before the bell, then slowing up, causing Coe to loose his rhythm and pass him wide on the penultimate bend, Coe would have broken the WR that day. It would have been about 3:29.2-3:29.3, but with the inefficient pace, that indicates at least a second faster in his peak year of 81 or post LA 84.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 9:19am EDT

re: Deanouk

Deanouk wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Nope. Not many people think that Coe peaked in 1986. He ran his pb in 86 after his dad was furious at him for running a bad race in the 1500 in Stuttgart. I think I remember reading that he told Seb something like 'now go out and run the definitive 1500m of your life'.
Coe had bad pacing when he was at his peak in 81, and before. I think in his autobiography he claims that there were a couple of times he could have run at least 3:28 with decent pacing and quite a few here agree with that.
He did reach his peak again, or close to it in the 1500 in LA and Zurich. Unfortunately the pacing was off yet again in Zurich post LA,but he looked capable of running well under 3:30 that night, as his performance in LA suggested also.
+1. I wholeheartedly agree with all this.
Just one thing to add. He was actually in great form at end of 86 too, it was the first season since 81 that he actually managed to reach end of season and not have to curtail it short due to injury or illness as he had done in 79, 80, 82, 83, 84 and 85!
He probably ran an even worse tactical race in the Stuttgart 1500 final than he did in the Moscow 800! I’ve estimated he ran approximately 25m extra on the bends in that 1500 final. With that taken into consideration, his closing speed over last 800 and 400 was better than Cram’s, but you can’t give someone like Cram that sort of advantage in a 3:41 race.
The 3:29 in Rieti a week later underlined what sort of form he was in, but even that had dreadfully uneven pacing. The rabbit went through first 400 in 53 low, with Coe having the good sense to keep off it a bit. Even so, his first 3 laps went 54.0, 58.0, 56.1. Such a discrepancy of 4 secs is not an efficient was of running your best time. He also had more than 400m with no drafting, and but for Chesire strangely speeding up and going in front of Coe just before the bell, then slowing up, causing Coe to loose his rhythm and pass him wide on the penultimate bend, Coe would have broken the WR that day. It would have been about 3:29.2-3:29.3, but with the inefficient pace, that indicates at least a second faster in his peak year of 81 or post LA 84.

Rieti 1986 was a horribly executed race for Coe.

He could have easily run in the low 3:29s.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 12:34pm EDT

re: Give That Man A Hand

Not so, you have the view that it can't be 3m each for Cram, but then you take it down to 2m per turnx2=4m, whereas you say that Coe needs 14 cm wide to get 10m, but have him on the line or outside, which wouldn't give that 14 cm avg, and in fact he is not always there, but often is toward the outside of lane 1. That combination is why I say you are cherry-picking to get a slight advantage for Coe on the adjusted time over Cram. If you were being reasonable, you'd say that Cram was closer to 5m, if not quite at 3m per turn and you'd suggest Coe had in fact, say, 8-9m, but you need to get your numbers just so for your idol.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 12:51pm EDT

re: Remember Crammie

Remember Crammie wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Check the 1984 Olympic 1500m entries and see what they both thought.
He pushed Crammie to the wire in 85 and Crammie that year was as good if not better than Coe had been

Cram was not at his very best in Nice when Aouita appeared to almost catch him. His calf problems had flared up again and he was beaten by Tom McKean the week before over 800m when nobody knew who McKean was. Cram was at his best a little later in the season when he broke the Mile and 2000 records and came close to Coe's 1000m WR.

Cram probably would have ran 3:45 in Oslo if he'd gone a little earlier or perhaps if Coe had been at his best so they could push each other to the line. That would have been comparable to a 3:28 1500m.

As discussed in this thread alone, Coe should have ran low 3:29 at least in 86 when he probably wasn't quite (but very close to) his absolute peak form. He should have ran 3:28 or even faster in 79-81 if he'd had decent pacing. He never had a pumped up Aouita to chase him to the line in any of his WR attempts.

I would say Coe and Cram at their very best were very close to each other over 1500/Mile. We saw that in 1986 when it really came down to who ran the better race. Both at their very best would have been too good for Aouita.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 3:50pm EDT

re: Coevett

Cram actually thinks he could have ran 3:44 for the mile and 3:28 for the 1500m :

Cram’s mark has since been surpassed as the world record by, firstly, Noureddine Morceli’s 3:44.39 and then Hicham El Guerrouj’s 3:43.13. But unless Mo Farah takes a serious crack at the distance, it looks set to survive as the UK record for some time yet.
So does Cram agree – was it his greatest record? “It’s hard to judge,” he says. “Certainly the easiest record was the mile. I remember crossing the line and feeling ‘woah’ and later that night I said to a few people that if I did 3:46 feeling like that then 3:44 possible.
“Of course you always think you’re going to get better and run faster. But I never ran a hard mile again in my life when I was in form. So I guess in terms of a physical accomplishment the mile is the one that stands out.”
Does he regret never running faster over the mile? “A little bit. There are two things in an athlete’s career: what you win and how fast did you run and I think I could have run faster in the 1500m and mile. In the 1500m maybe a second quicker and the mile maybe a couple of seconds quicker.”

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/crams-dream-mile-2611#rHbQpqrZYPoklEro.99

7 years ago 03/30/2018 4:28pm EDT

re: zxcvxczxcv

zxcvxczxcv wrote:
Not so, you have the view that it can't be 3m each for Cram, but then you take it down to 2m per turnx2=4m, whereas you say that Coe needs 14 cm wide to get 10m, but have him on the line or outside, which wouldn't give that 14 cm avg, and in fact he is not always there, but often is toward the outside of lane 1. That combination is why I say you are cherry-picking to get a slight advantage for Coe on the adjusted time over Cram. If you were being reasonable, you'd say that Cram was closer to 5m, if not quite at 3m per turn and you'd suggest Coe had in fact, say, 8-9m, but you need to get your numbers just so for your idol.

Not sure if you meant to direct this to the poster you responded to, or to me?

If the latter, I would be happy to respond, if I could follow what you are stating exactly, and what races you are referring to? Are you commenting on my suggestion in this thread that Coe ran an extra 25m in the 86 1500m final?

Or are you barking back to a difference of opinion we had over The extra distance run over 800m by Cram and Coe? Which, I hasten to add, has nothing to do with this thread!

If it is in relation to Cram’s 1:42.88 in 85, then yes, he ran c. 4m wide; 2m on 2nd bend and 2m on last (4th) bend. He was well inside the line between lanes 1 and 2 for the vast majority of those 2 bends.

You stated he ran 6m wide, but that would have required him to run just to the outside of the line between lanes 1 & 2 for the entirety of both bends. He clearly doesn’t do this.

When Coe ran in LA, he ran the majority of all 3 bends (2,3 and the last one) in lane 2, albeit a few inches wide of the line between 1 and 2. Had he run with his centre of gravity immediately above that line, meaning his left foot would be in lane 1 and his right foot in lane 2, that would have been 2.91m x 3, which = 8.73m extra. But both his feet were predominantly landing in lane 2. An extra 10cm wide over the duration of 3 bends is equivalent to 9.61m extra in total. As Coe was clearly way in to lane 2 during parts of those bends, then an estimate of 10m is a reasonable one.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 8:51pm EDT

re: Deanouk

Deanouk wrote:
zxcvxczxcv wrote:
Not so, you have the view that it can't be 3m each for Cram, but then you take it down to 2m per turnx2=4m, whereas you say that Coe needs 14 cm wide to get 10m, but have him on the line or outside, which wouldn't give that 14 cm avg, and in fact he is not always there, but often is toward the outside of lane 1. That combination is why I say you are cherry-picking to get a slight advantage for Coe on the adjusted time over Cram. If you were being reasonable, you'd say that Cram was closer to 5m, if not quite at 3m per turn and you'd suggest Coe had in fact, say, 8-9m, but you need to get your numbers just so for your idol.
Not sure if you meant to direct this to the poster you responded to, or to me?
If the latter, I would be happy to respond, if I could follow what you are stating exactly, and what races you are referring to? Are you commenting on my suggestion in this thread that Coe ran an extra 25m in the 86 1500m final?
Or are you barking back to a difference of opinion we had over The extra distance run over 800m by Cram and Coe? Which, I hasten to add, has nothing to do with this thread!
If it is in relation to Cram’s 1:42.88 in 85, then yes, he ran c. 4m wide; 2m on 2nd bend and 2m on last (4th) bend. He was well inside the line between lanes 1 and 2 for the vast majority of those 2 bends.
You stated he ran 6m wide, but that would have required him to run just to the outside of the line between lanes 1 & 2 for the entirety of both bends. He clearly doesn’t do this.
When Coe ran in LA, he ran the majority of all 3 bends (2,3 and the last one) in lane 2, albeit a few inches wide of the line between 1 and 2. Had he run with his centre of gravity immediately above that line, meaning his left foot would be in lane 1 and his right foot in lane 2, that would have been 2.91m x 3, which = 8.73m extra. But both his feet were predominantly landing in lane 2. An extra 10cm wide over the duration of 3 bends is equivalent to 9.61m extra in total. As Coe was clearly way in to lane 2 during parts of those bends, then an estimate of 10m is a reasonable one.

I was surprised to see Coe run such a poor 1500m in the 1986 EC.

Usually, he likes to be sitting around 3rd place to cover any moves but in this race he has hanging back and running quite wide at times.

Such a poor race for a great tactical runner.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 10:26pm EDT

re: I like Moroccan Runners

I like Moroccan Runners wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
You've really got to lay off those all nighters in thiner air. Only one Moroccan has done sub 13 since the ABP, and that was on one occasion, just. Fast Moroccans were a phenomenon of poor testing.
Yeah...I know; it was Iguider a few years back (barely - 12:59.25). I look it at this way, it's not as if others were doping pre-ABP era. There were some insane performances back then by a lot of athletes from other countries as well.
Here Subway; a cool racing video of El G - maybe it'll motivate you to get some speed in on that bad wheel of your's. ☺
https://youtu.be/DIuCgQJWxws
I like Moroccan runners! ?

I don't think that 'wheel' is connected to my chassis any more.

7 years ago 03/30/2018 10:32pm EDT

re: Deanouk

Deanouk wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Nope. Not many people think that Coe peaked in 1986. He ran his pb in 86 after his dad was furious at him for running a bad race in the 1500 in Stuttgart. I think I remember reading that he told Seb something like 'now go out and run the definitive 1500m of your life'.
Coe had bad pacing when he was at his peak in 81, and before. I think in his autobiography he claims that there were a couple of times he could have run at least 3:28 with decent pacing and quite a few here agree with that.
He did reach his peak again, or close to it in the 1500 in LA and Zurich. Unfortunately the pacing was off yet again in Zurich post LA,but he looked capable of running well under 3:30 that night, as his performance in LA suggested also.
+1. I wholeheartedly agree with all this.
Just one thing to add. He was actually in great form at end of 86 too, it was the first season since 81 that he actually managed to reach end of season and not have to curtail it short due to injury or illness as he had done in 79, 80, 82, 83, 84 and 85!
He probably ran an even worse tactical race in the Stuttgart 1500 final than he did in the Moscow 800! I’ve estimated he ran approximately 25m extra on the bends in that 1500 final. With that taken into consideration, his closing speed over last 800 and 400 was better than Cram’s, but you can’t give someone like Cram that sort of advantage in a 3:41 race.
The 3:29 in Rieti a week later underlined what sort of form he was in, but even that had dreadfully uneven pacing. The rabbit went through first 400 in 53 low, with Coe having the good sense to keep off it a bit. Even so, his first 3 laps went 54.0, 58.0, 56.1. Such a discrepancy of 4 secs is not an efficient was of running your best time. He also had more than 400m with no drafting, and but for Chesire strangely speeding up and going in front of Coe just before the bell, then slowing up, causing Coe to loose his rhythm and pass him wide on the penultimate bend, Coe would have broken the WR that day. It would have been about 3:29.2-3:29.3, but with the inefficient pace, that indicates at least a second faster in his peak year of 81 or post LA 84.

Deano, Deano, you know the rules, Rieti is a "Mickey-mouse" track ?. That time doesn't count unless it is a Kenyan, in that case it was worth a 3:26.8.

7 years ago 03/31/2018 3:44am EDT

re: Subway Surfers Addiction

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
+1. I wholeheartedly agree with all this.
Just one thing to add. He was actually in great form at end of 86 too, it was the first season since 81 that he actually managed to reach end of season and not have to curtail it short due to injury or illness as he had done in 79, 80, 82, 83, 84 and 85!
He probably ran an even worse tactical race in the Stuttgart 1500 final than he did in the Moscow 800! I’ve estimated he ran approximately 25m extra on the bends in that 1500 final. With that taken into consideration, his closing speed over last 800 and 400 was better than Cram’s, but you can’t give someone like Cram that sort of advantage in a 3:41 race.
The 3:29 in Rieti a week later underlined what sort of form he was in, but even that had dreadfully uneven pacing. The rabbit went through first 400 in 53 low, with Coe having the good sense to keep off it a bit. Even so, his first 3 laps went 54.0, 58.0, 56.1. Such a discrepancy of 4 secs is not an efficient was of running your best time. He also had more than 400m with no drafting, and but for Chesire strangely speeding up and going in front of Coe just before the bell, then slowing up, causing Coe to loose his rhythm and pass him wide on the penultimate bend, Coe would have broken the WR that day. It would have been about 3:29.2-3:29.3, but with the inefficient pace, that indicates at least a second faster in his peak year of 81 or post LA 84.
Deano, Deano, you know the rules, Rieti is a "Mickey-mouse" track ?. That time doesn't count unless it is a Kenyan, in that case it was worth a 3:26.8.

Don't tell Morceli that.

He loved Rieti lol.

7 years ago 03/31/2018 4:44am EDT

re: Subway Surfers Addiction

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
I like Moroccan Runners wrote:
Yeah...I know; it was Iguider a few years back (barely - 12:59.25). I look it at this way, it's not as if others were doping pre-ABP era. There were some insane performances back then by a lot of athletes from other countries as well.
Here Subway; a cool racing video of El G - maybe it'll motivate you to get some speed in on that bad wheel of your's. ☺
https://youtu.be/DIuCgQJWxws
I like Moroccan runners! ?
I don't think that 'wheel' is connected to my chassis any more.

Well if you don't like injecting speed, my coach recommends dianabol and test as alternatives.

EVERYONE IS DIRTY! You just need to oil the wheels every now and again, remove the desert sand...and the parasites, hehe.

We took it to the Brits and we took it to the East Africans. And we did it clean. Us Moroccan boys are clean. ALWAYS! ?

7 years ago 04/01/2018 4:54am EDT

re: El Gaouita

El Gaouita wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
I don't think that 'wheel' is connected to my chassis any more.
Well if you don't like injecting speed, my coach recommends dianabol and test as alternatives.
EVERYONE IS DIRTY! You just need to oil the wheels every now and again, remove the desert sand...and the parasites, hehe.
We took it to the Brits and we took it to the East Africans. And we did it clean. Us Moroccan boys are clean. ALWAYS! ?

Always clean?

You joking?

7 years ago 04/01/2018 6:55pm EDT

re: Blofeld

Blofeld wrote:
El Gaouita wrote:
Well if you don't like injecting speed, my coach recommends dianabol and test as alternatives.
EVERYONE IS DIRTY! You just need to oil the wheels every now and again, remove the desert sand...and the parasites, hehe.
We took it to the Brits and we took it to the East Africans. And we did it clean. Us Moroccan boys are clean. ALWAYS! ?
Always clean?
You joking?

Of course, he's just teasing us for kicks and giggles.

7 years ago 04/01/2018 8:36pm EDT

re: Frenzel

Frenzel wrote:
If Coe and Aouita raced over 1500m/mile. Who would win?
I believe in a tactical race, Coe would have the upper hand with his kick.
Too bad they did not actually race.

Did Aouita ever run a WR attempt on the 800m?

Every 800m race I've seen Aouita run, he stays in the middle or back of the runners in the 1st lap and then slowly gets to the front with 200m to go.

I reckon if he did a 800m time trial he could have run 1:42.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Dh8kdnd2c

7 years ago 04/02/2018 8:02am EDT

re: Borzov

Borzov wrote:
Frenzel wrote:
If Coe and Aouita raced over 1500m/mile. Who would win?
I believe in a tactical race, Coe would have the upper hand with his kick.
Too bad they did not actually race.
Did Aouita ever run a WR attempt on the 800m?
Every 800m race I've seen Aouita run, he stays in the middle or back of the runners in the 1st lap and then slowly gets to the front with 200m to go.
I reckon if he did a 800m time trial he could have run 1:42.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Dh8kdnd2c

Maybe high 1:42 for the 800m.

Aouita did not have the pure speed of a Coe or Cruz.

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