Fact czech wrote:
Lickety Split wrote:
- Typical response .... going ad hominem on Lickety when faced with the brutal facts.
Your post contained no facts. “WCAP is worse than doping” is the definition of an opinion.
You’re welcome.
Hey Jarmilla!
FACT: More WCAPers have represented the US in long-distance running than those later convicted of doping.
This thread is on it's sixth page and not a single person has posted to agree with you, even the regular LR clowns.
- I don't do GROUPTHINK!
- Attacking Lickety is so much easier than promoting a rational argument.
- I do not apologize for defending American distance runners against OUR Army & the WCAP.
- I do not care if Chelimo is a soldier .... he is a clown.
Elaborate on Chelimo being a clown?
What if American Born runners join WCAP?
Were you personally hurt by the Wcapers?
Lickety Split wrote:
- Why would I choose to meet with a WCAPer to experience their world? It is self-evident .... what's to learn?
Or maybe because you are a coward and would never bash any of the WCAPers in person so you hide behind an internet handle (at least you use the same one so we can clearly identify that you're an idiot).
Elaborate on Chelimo being a clown?
- Watch his behavior in major championships .... very unsportsmanlike -- particularly for an alleged soldier.
What if American Born runners join WCAP?
- I'm fine w/those that enlist via any non-MAVNI program. That is not exploitation of a immigration loophole.
- I'm fine w/those that enlist via the MAVNI program & actually serve in roles that the program was designed for .... particularly tough, Swahili speakers defending our nation from al Shabab on the Kenya-Somalia border versus training under Scott Smith at Fort Collins & competing on the Diamond League circuit on taxpayer dime.
Were you personally hurt by the Wcapers?
- Yes. Anytime I see them take a spot from a no-kidding American athlete who has the standards & when I do my taxes in the Spring.
FitzyXC wrote:
Lickety Split wrote:
- Why would I choose to meet with a WCAPer to experience their world? It is self-evident .... what's to learn?
Or maybe because you are a coward and would never bash any of the WCAPers in person so you hide behind an internet handle (at least you use the same one so we can clearly identify that you're an idiot).
- I don't hide .... I actively pull against them at every track & field event I attend or watch.
- I am not a coward ... I speak for the silent majority: American elite middle & long-distance runners. They were thrilled with my analysis on the impact of the Secretary of Defense's review as well as the recent IAAF ruling. Such efforts have disrupted the WCAP model & allow more real versus MAVNI-Americans to compete for our great nation.
People in favor of the WCAP program obviously have nothing at stake. I am a marathon runner trying to run a time that would get me a full sponsorship (partial currently), and make a world team.
Does anyone here realize that this citizenship cheating effects all American elite and sub elites? If we go to a US championship road race, these guys take all of the prize money. I finished just outside the top 10 at one recently and if no WCAP people were there, I would have finished top 10, I would have gotten prize money and travel reimbursement. Instead, I went home empty handed.
For those who say, "Who cares? THEY'RE WINNING US MEDALS!!" I ask, what the hell is wrong with you? Look at the last USATF Outdoor 10k championships. The 8x national champion didn't even make the team. It's artificial. It infuriates me because I missed my spot to run at the USATF championships because it was taken by WCAP athletes.
Can we all just put on our thinking caps here and realize this goes much deeper than medals at the world stage?
I’m glad they are making the team instead of a whiny snowflake like yourself.
Anonymous Elite1816 wrote:
People in favor of the WCAP program obviously have nothing at stake. I am a marathon runner trying to run a time that would get me a full sponsorship (partial currently), and make a world team.
Does anyone here realize that this citizenship cheating effects all American elite and sub elites? If we go to a US championship road race, these guys take all of the prize money. I finished just outside the top 10 at one recently and if no WCAP people were there, I would have finished top 10, I would have gotten prize money and travel reimbursement. Instead, I went home empty handed.
For those who say, "Who cares? THEY'RE WINNING US MEDALS!!" I ask, what the hell is wrong with you? Look at the last USATF Outdoor 10k championships. The 8x national champion didn't even make the team. It's artificial. It infuriates me because I missed my spot to run at the USATF championships because it was taken by WCAP athletes.
Can we all just put on our thinking caps here and realize this goes much deeper than medals at the world stage?
- Piling on ...
- Do you realize that the US Army pays the WCAP athlete-soldiers travel to these races? Which really means your tax dollars ... if you pay them, seeing that you are elite/sub-elite you are likely living close to poverty level/
- Do you realize that these WCAP athlete-soldiers triple-dip ... Soldier Pay & Benefits, Prize Money/Appearance Fees, & sponsorship?
- A much better deal than running for Qatr!
Lickety Split wrote:
- Piling on ...
- Do you realize that the US Army pays the WCAP athlete-soldiers travel to these races? Which really means your tax dollars ... if you pay them, seeing that you are elite/sub-elite you are likely living close to poverty level/
- Do you realize that these WCAP athlete-soldiers triple-dip ... Soldier Pay & Benefits, Prize Money/Appearance Fees, & sponsorship?
- A much better deal than running for Qatr!
Again, these are just arguments against WCAP in general, which is totally valid. However, you claim that this is fine when applied to US citizens, but it is suddenly not okay when applied to immigrants. That is your contradiction.
America is a country of immigrants... We attract the best and brightest from around the globe. If you want an all-ethnically white national team, move to Scandinavia.
- I don't consider WCAP athlete-soldiers that enlisted under the MAVNI program as legal immigrants. Does that help you understand ?
Lickety Split wrote:
- I don't consider WCAP athlete-soldiers that enlisted under the MAVNI program as legal immigrants. Does that help you understand ?
Well, they gained citizenship through a legal pathway. The army thinks they are doing good. The army has the right to deploy them in a time of need. They have special skills (bi-lingual, knowledge of endurance athletics, extreme physical fitness). Most (all?) are college educated in the US. I'm not sure what else someone needs to do to deserve citizenship.
It seems like you take issue with this path being ~too easy~ for NCAA Kenyans. I believe they all suffered and worked extremely hard to get where they are.
Now, if you believe that US athletics should a be protected space for native-born citizens (much like women's sports is ~in theory~ a protected space for women), that is a different issue, and I'm not sure LetsRun is the best forum to discuss that.
To put it more plainly, I also have problems with WCAP, but my issue is with WCAP existing in the first place, not that NCAA Kenyans become citizens through MANVI and then go directly into WCAP (which is a reasonable and honorable path given the system we have in place).
Lickety Split wrote:
- I don't consider WCAP athlete-soldiers that enlisted under the MAVNI program as legal immigrants. Does that help you understand ?
They have US passports. You may not like the process by which they obtained them, but it was legal.
My grievance is that the OUR Army exploits the MAVNI program's purpose in a manner that not only wastes taxpayer money, but hijacks American distance running models. I find it neither reasonable or honorable that these athlete-soldiers are deliberately employed to hijack American distance running at the expense of the US taxpayer and even more egregion -- their skill sets not utilized in the defense of our nation.
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Lickety Split wrote:
- I don't consider WCAP athlete-soldiers that enlisted under the MAVNI program as legal immigrants. Does that help you understand ?
They have US passports. You may not like the process by which they obtained them, but it was legal.
You are correct --- I object to how the OUR Army has exploited the MAVNI's program immigration loophole. I have never accused anyone of being criminal ... just immoral.
Lickety Split wrote:
My grievance is that the OUR Army exploits the MAVNI program's purpose in a manner that not only wastes taxpayer money, but hijacks American distance running models. I find it neither reasonable or honorable that these athlete-soldiers are deliberately employed to hijack American distance running at the expense of the US taxpayer and even more egregion -- their skill sets not utilized in the defense of our nation.
I actually sort of agree with you in this sense... I don't see why the Army should have a track (although deep down I like that they do). By reasonable and honorable, I mean to say that it is a reasonable and honorable path for the athletes themselves, not that it is reasonable and honorable for the Army to have a track team.
However, I take issue with your personal attacks on the WCAP athletes and your claims that they are not true citizens, for all the reasons that have been laid out in this thread.
gdeegz wrote:
Lickety Split wrote:
My grievance is that the OUR Army exploits the MAVNI program's purpose in a manner that not only wastes taxpayer money, but hijacks American distance running models. I find it neither reasonable or honorable that these athlete-soldiers are deliberately employed to hijack American distance running at the expense of the US taxpayer and even more egregion -- their skill sets not utilized in the defense of our nation.
I actually sort of agree with you in this sense... I don't see why the Army should have a track (although deep down I like that they do). By reasonable and honorable, I mean to say that it is a reasonable and honorable path for the athletes themselves, not that it is reasonable and honorable for the Army to have a track team.
However, I take issue with your personal attacks on the WCAP athletes and your claims that they are not true citizens, for all the reasons that have been laid out in this thread.
*I don't see why the Army should have a track ~team~
gdeegz wrote:
gdeegz wrote:
I actually sort of agree with you in this sense... I don't see why the Army should have a track (although deep down I like that they do). By reasonable and honorable, I mean to say that it is a reasonable and honorable path for the athletes themselves, not that it is reasonable and honorable for the Army to have a track team.
However, I take issue with your personal attacks on the WCAP athletes and your claims that they are not true citizens, for all the reasons that have been laid out in this thread.
- It is honorable for the Army to have a track & field team ... particularly one that sets realistic conditions for soldiers to represent their service against other foreign militaries and/or national-world class competition.
- OUR Army crosses the line when they exploit both the MAVNI & US taxpayer to create a subsidized NOP/BTC when these guys should be helping us fight al Shabab on the Kenya-Somali border ... at least one tour.
*I don't see why the Army should have a track ~team~