jjjjjjj wrote:
the journalist sounds like the one who just wrote that slanted article on the Indian athlete.
? what
jjjjjjj wrote:
the journalist sounds like the one who just wrote that slanted article on the Indian athlete.
? what
rojo wrote:
1 2 3 green wrote:Rojo, one point of the argument always comes down to sex (a person’s biological status) vs gender ( the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person’s biological sex). T&F has classifications based on sex. This journalist thinks they are classified based on gender.
1) I think the whole argument of allowing people to choose their own gender makes my argument of requiring treatment all the more commonsensical otherwise you are going to have Caitlyn Jenner in the women's category without treatment.
2) At one point i said to her, I think you and I are going to have to disagree. I'm coming at that solely from the perspective of a fan/expert of track and field. It's clear ot me you are only coming at it as someone interested in transgedner rights, and then I was blown away to learn she was the captain of her college cross country team.
3) I think most athletes dont' think Semenya should compete in the women's category but some like Brenda Martinez do. I respect Brenda and acknowledge we have a difference of opinion What I don't get is how my views are being viewed as bigoted and ill-intentioned.
PS. I don't think Caster is a man. Most definitely not. Those posts anger me. If you are born without a penis, to be called a man would be tough. That being said, I'm not going to delete those comments as people are entitled to that opinion. I have great personal sympathy for her and find it to be fascinating how she's almost flaunting her 'masculine' features after races now.
Is the record true that Semenya was born with both something that looked like a vagina and something that looked like a penis, and that that malformed penis was removed and Semenya was raised as a girl?
Then SA quickly changed a law so Semenya could marry a woman?
It's easy, if you have testes of any sort, internal or external you compete in the male category, or a 3rd category: Intersex Division.
It's very generous of Brenda Martinez, as a Catholic to accept Semenya in to the women's events. (Not that she has any choice.)
The solution was simple. Hold intersex divisions, and that's what the IOC should have announced right after the CAS insane ruling.
Put the intersex divisions in the either the regular Olympics, or Paralympics.
Semenya et. al, already make it a side show of ethicless biological males not giving a crap what they steal from women born with ovaries.
Intergalactic wrote:
Decent respect and consideration for our fellow human beings is critical. Please, please continue to be respectful and kind towards Semenya personally, and I would suggest taking a strong stance on your view of respect towards Semenya herself as well as compassion for her situation. If you don't do that, then arguing against her competing with women will lose its authority.
chilhowee wrote:
Intergalactic, your sentiments apply equally to Semenya [him]self, right? In other words, [he] has a duty to treat other people and athletes ethically and fairly. Tucker and others have said that Semenya "should not be blamed" for a situation caused by the CAS. Someone else said that "Semenya is supported by the S.A.A.A." These statements presume or want us to think that Semenya has no sense of right and wrong, no moral conscious, that [he] is clueless of the change in [his] fitness brought on by a ruling that stopped [his] required medication. In other words, poor ole Caster has no idea what [he] is doing. [He] just doesn't understand how it was that [he] couldn't win previously, but now [he] destroys world champions, leaving them seconds adrift.
No, I'm afraid Caster knows exactly what [he] is doing. It is called pure Will-To-Power and it has nothing to do with ethics, fairness, or respect. Semenya is glad to crush, dethrone and steal Diamond League profits from legitimate female world champions. Anyone with actual ethics would recognize and acknowledge the obvious cause and effect. But $emenya plays dumb. [He] is worthy of no respect.
This type of travesty only happens in darkness, facts buried, because they would be embarrassing, not holding people accountable, because that would hurt their feelings, not saying they can't compete with XX females because they don't meet the criteria, because they "see" themselves as females, and we aren't allowed to discuss this would be unkind to those who are knowingly raping and trying to devastate the women's athlete events.
Let's stop hiding the truth. Men born men are men, and don't deserve to be called females, especially not when they are using the name to try and push real women out of their women's athletic events, and to replace them with men.
Let's tell the truth from now on.
He is a he, and he doesn't belong in women's athletic events.
realist1234 wrote:
Fans of the sport will never be able to reason with people that are interested in transgender rights because they equate transgender rights with doing anything that anyone wants with regard to gender. I understand their fight, but as a sports fan I believe that a line has to be drawn in some way.
I likewise understand their plight, but not their closed minded uncaring aggression into women's athletics.
I see nothing wrong with them organizing their own competitions.
But leave the women alone, and stop pretending to be one of them.
The Angel of Death wrote:
It's not the discussion per se, but how this website is presenting the issue, which generally has had no nuance or insightful analysis. Just "ew, she's a freak (*GROSS*)." There is definitely a conversation to be had with such a tough issue as where and how inter-sex athletes should compete, but you guys are treating this like middle schoolers would - immature, shallow, moronic, disrespectful, and unprofessional. The criticism, frankly, is just and deserved.
The mind bogglingly stupid "Ashton Eaton should compete as a female at the Olympics" thread (or whatever the hell that trash was) YOU created is a good reference point to start.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7336956&page=2
You're trying to fault people for posting about what transgendered males are doing to women's athletics.
Nonsense. If you want it to stop, then stop doing it!
We have the right to discuss and bring attention to this issue.
(^^) wrote:
As far as sex-testing being humiliating and invasive, many people would probably feel that it is. The question is whether it is a reasonable requirement for someone who chooses to participate in a sport where being a man or a woman can make a serious difference in the outcome of the sport.
By comparison, both men and women who choose to compete in top-level track and field have to agree to have strangers watch them urinate, as is described in detail (including quotes by Emily Enfeld) in this recent Washington Post article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/a-less-glamorous-side-of-olympic-life-peeing-in-a-cup-under-watchful-eyes/2016/07/16/8df0524c-493e-11e6-bdb9-701687974517_story.htmlThis drug testing is probably felt to be humiliating and invasive by some athletes, but they choose to give up some privacy in order to compete because doping makes such a difference in the outcome of the sport.
Plus the constant drawing of blood.
And doping provides a questionable difference in performance,
compared with a 10 percent difference between females and males.
rojo wrote: Requiring someone like Caster Semenya, who is XY, to reduce her testosterone so she can compete in the protected women's category isn't an inhumane burden.When has this ever been confirmed? or is it well-known by those in the know, but illegal to publish confirmation (confidential medical records issues)? I had always assumed that Semenya was XX and that was why she was eventually cleared to compete and with no treatments.
XX only wrote:
Where I disagree is that women ONLY should compete in women's sports. That's women with ONLY xx chromosomes not xxy nor any other aberration. If an xx woman naturally has higher testosterone, then she is gifted with rarity just as Bolt is gifted in a way many men aren't. But I wholeheartedly disagree that any person other than one with ONLY xx chromosomes should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
Your conclusion doesn't meet with your premise.
The standard should be XX and including all other criteria that determine a biological woman.
craptastic wrote:
I don't think you're being bigoted, and LRC is definitely an influential voice and I applaud your reasoned reply and reject her overwrought rhetoric about lots of people dying (!).
However, you really lost me on the "I'm trying to save women's sports." That was a little grandiose, dude.
I don't usually agree with Rojo, but he is 100 percent right in this case.
If and when more transgendered men come flooding into women's events, there would be nowhere left for real females to compete with each other.
disrespectful and proud wrote:
Rojo, just like Tucker, thinks it's fine that athletes take testosterone reducing medicaments to be allowed to compete in an easier category. This is the same as taking weight reducing medicaments in order to compete in a lower weight class.
It's called doping.
And it's unlikely to be very healthy for the athlete. Who'll get sued first? The IAAF?
The only logical and sustainable way to have a female category in sports is to define it on the chromosome level. No one with a Y-chromosome (or SRY-gene) should be allowed to compete in the female category at elite/professional level.
joiner of praise wrote:
Yeah, chilhowee has given us two excellent posts. Props from me too.
Coach Cookie wrote:
In order to make it fair, we'll probably advance towards two categories: women's and open. This way, the participation rights of women athletes are guaranteed.
Simple, and effective.
Let's please do this now.
Otherwise, as acceptance of transgender/intersex increases, the danger will exist of intersex/transgender athletes completely overrun women's sports.
Women's rights wrote:
XX only wrote:Where I disagree is that women ONLY should compete in women's sports. That's women with ONLY xx chromosomes not xxy nor any other aberration. If an xx woman naturally has higher testosterone, then she is gifted with rarity just as Bolt is gifted in a way many men aren't. But I wholeheartedly disagree that any person other than one with ONLY xx chromosomes should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
Your conclusion doesn't meet with your premise.
The standard should be XX and including all other criteria that determine a biological woman.
Non-presence of the SRY-gene is likely enough (the SRY-gene is the male "innards" of the Y-chromosome).
But it's not a scientific question. SJWs aren't interested in science or a fair sport. Their only interest is to promote the LGBT agenda. Heaven knows why.
Phil Fondacaro wrote:
rojo wrote: Requiring someone like Caster Semenya, who is XY, to reduce her testosterone so she can compete in the protected women's category isn't an inhumane burden.When has this ever been confirmed? or is it well-known by those in the know, but illegal to publish confirmation (confidential medical records issues)? I had always assumed that Semenya was XX and that was why she was eventually cleared to compete and with no treatments.
He was born XY, was tested XY and will always be XY.... NOT female.
This is exactly the problem with calling him a she/her/female!
He's a male. Period. No more free lunch.
SJW wrote:
Rowbury wears the lipstick of her grandma. Of course she's an outdated bigot.
Is that your rational argument? And don't hurt people's feelings?
~ ~ ~
Shannon, thank you for helping to bring this issue in the open.
With this groundswell of support, I hope more and more women will speak up.
45476 wrote:
But it's not a scientific question. SJWs aren't interested in science or a fair sport. Their only interest is to promote the LGBT agenda. Heaven knows why.
They're George Soros' useful idiots, which is why he continues to give their myriad groups millions of dollars annually. These groups keep many leftists occupied with identity politics whilst the banksters and multi-national corporations continue to plunder the country and destroy our individual rights and sovereignty.
I'll give an example: how much discussion has there been in the mainstream media over the recent bill to quash Vermont's law on labeling GMO food products?
http://vtdigger.org/2016/07/15/bill-undoing-vermonts-gmo-labeling-law-goes-to-obama/For the record, I'm not a Sanders supporter, but agree with him on this.
Jenny Meadows doesn't have a problem with Semenya:
"How much faster she can go will be very interesting," Meadows said. "I'm sure she will be formidable opposition to run against. If she does a bit more training I think she'll absolutely shatter the world record to be honest. That will definitely leave the rest of us thinking: 'Who is going to get the silver?'
At Rio, an athlete with SRY and XY gene?, Niyonsaba or Wambui probably. Unless it's a female who's mega dosed on PEDs. But good luck Jenny if you make it.
"I always treat everyone the same but to be honest, even the year previously with Pamela Jelimo [the 800m Olympic champion], all the rest of the girls were obviously looking at Jelimo, just wanting to weigh her up and thinking: 'Why can this girl be so far ahead of us?' That's what happens when you're a little bit of a freak of nature just because you are so much further ahead of the rest of your opponents."
Freak of nature in one case, PEDs in the other?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/jul/21/caster-semenya-jenny-meadows
I think it was the NY Times Magazine article (about Dutee Chand and the history of sex testing in athletics). It was slanted because it did not consider the fate of women's athletics in allowing such genetic cases into their competition. The women's 800m is now dominated by three such cases.
what's with your obsession with labeling people "sjw"?
Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, the floodgates appear to have been opened, women asked for it and support it, some anyway, let women sort it out.
Eleni Schirmer:
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/open-letter-south-african-runner-caster-semenya/story?id=40657017
Shannon Rowbury:
http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2016/07/08/shannon-rowbury-caster-semenya-olympics-track-and-field/