Doping in Kenya English video

Thanks for the correction for the obvious mis-type. I meant Kenyan Police have arrested the two doctors from the video and evidence taken by Seppelt.

Here is what I wrote up thread, just so anyone else is clear what I think:

You and I agree more than you think, Renato.

With regards to Seppelt, remember that this is not a documentary on specific individuals, or on the Kenyan "Elites" as you define it. For Seppelt, the 2:14, 28:00, 13:30 marathon type British athletes (total speculation on my part, but you see my point) are elite. For the purposes of informing the public about doping, the B and C level elites as you call them are all top elites as Seppelt defines them.

He is showing the availability of EPO. Regardless of the character/role that hustler Freddie is made to play, that is fact of availability is important for the context of the running culture. Christian Hesch showed the same thing with buying EPO from Mexico. Heredia showed the same thing; it is important for understanding the doping context in the US.

He is showing that some "elites" use it. He seems more accusatory of British athletics in this video than of the Kenyan athletes. Whether you want to call those athletes elite or not is not important, Seppelt is informing the public that they are in use.

He is showing that doctors are assisting in doping. That fact is well known by you, and even supported and explained in your posts. Doctors and chemists are a problem, and you have said so many times yourself. Seppelt is informing the public about the context of doping in Kenya.

Those are the facts in the video.

I'm sure you are distressed over what the video implies. Certainly, the casual audience will make an inference about the top elites, when they see what is possible for lower tier athletes.

And so far, there is little evidence to show that top elites are an exception to the pattern of doping we have seen. Both in the physiological sense (we know we disagree on this point), and in the behavioral sense (top elites are getting caught). I won't press you on an opinion about the Rosa's arrest, or Aden's camp bust. But the facts of Aden's group show that the top elites, by your definition, are just as susceptible to doping as anyone else. This large group of world elites follows the pattern of doping we have seen.

Maybe you want to sit down with Seppelt for an interview?

___________________________

With regards to testing in Kenya, it has been shown that micro dosing overnight can go undetected by a urine test the next morning. In fact, this is the technique recommended by the doctor in Seppelt's documentary: a few hundred units intravenously every day or every other day. It has been shown that drinking a liter of water an hour before a sample is taken can mask the fluctuations in Biopassport markers caused by EPO.

I understand that circumstances dictate informing athletes the night before. I would rather have that than nothing. But please don't pretend that there are no interventions in those 9.5 hours that a doped athlete could take to make sure they come up clean the next day. Please don't pretend that doping techniques have not adapted to testing.

Renato Canova wrote:

Somebody thinking athletes can do something for changing their test, during the time occurring between 8pm and 5am of the next day (9 hours) is completely mentally sick, and doesn't know anything about the normal life of the best kenyan athletes, 95% of them living in training camps.

In other words, about blood tests there are no possibilities of any manipulation.

If you are microdosing EPO and testosterone every night , being notified the evening before a test is an advantage

My stand is that Seppelt, after trying four times, has still given us no real information about ELITE doping in Kenya. This is my own independently formed conclusion just moments after having watched the first documentary, and then hoping the next three documentaries would help fill in any of the missing information about Kenya.You are correct that WADA did not act quickly. WADA was aware of the accusations for two years, before suggesting to the Stepanovs to go talk to Seppelt. There are complex reasons for this, but essentially WADA did not have the mandate, or resources, to investigate. Maybe out of frustration, Jack Robertson suggested to the Stepanovs to go public, then go into hiding.However, the IAAF's newly formed Ethics Commission, shortly after receiving the complaint, immediately began investigating claims of Russian bribery, eight months BEFORE the ARD documentary aired. The investigation was only about half-way complete, so it would have been premature to act, and innappropriate to disclose the investigation to the public, something which would have hindered the investigation.Comparing the timeline of the two investigations, the IAAF seems to have reacted better than WADA with respect to policing the IAAF/Russian bribery/extortion attempts.I don't mean the Russian dopers are victims (well they are victims of their own federation), but the NON-dopers. Because of the ARD report and subsequent WADA IC recommendations, innocent non-doping Russian athletes are also being punished by the national ban, not to mention, demonized by the public.Minor point, but Athletics Kenya did not arrest any doctors. It's not clear from the documentary that these doctors are important in ELITE Kenyan athletics. Like all the other documentaries, time will tell, but today we are waiting, because Seppelt didn't tell.My advice to whistle blowers is to lodge your complaints with the IAAF Ethics Commission. The Shobukhovas did this, and testified, leading to four bans, and triggering further investigations, and, as far as I know, they have not had to go into hiding like the Stepanovs or Rodchenkov.I am against crime, fraud, and lies, but only to the extent they are shown to have occurred.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

I find all these claims of EPO not working on altitude born athletes to be merely an attempt at a slight-of-hand misdirection. Doesn't matter if it works or not. Of course there is no plausible theory or why it wouldn't work on this particular population and not others. Yes, I've read all the posts that purport to explain why

.

That's right. I'd put this to rekrunner too. It seems like wishful thinking to suppose that a drug that has a 7% effect on non-elites would do precisely nothing for the best of the best. Obviously 7% is too much--that's about two minutes over ten k--but why can't it be 1%, 2%? Most things in life aren't all or nothing.

Renato Canova has three arguments that EPO doesn't work in his altitute born, raised and trained athletes. I find none convincing.

1) hematocrit falls under altitude training but rises when EPO is administered.

All this proves is that altitude training does more than just stimulate EPO production.

2) elites aren't limited by oxygen carrying capacity but by oxygen binding.

Even if there is a kernel of truth in this (I don't know), this would explain why it is less than 7% not why it is zero. Oxygen carrying would have to be completely irrelevant in elites for this argument to work and I find that hard to believe given how important it is for everyone else.

3) Renato claims to have trained numerous completely clean athletes to world record caliber levels.

I for one find this encouraging because it gives me hope that some of the great performances I've seen (like Moses mosop running 2:03:06 is Boston) are legitimate but it doesn't really prove anything except that Renato and his athletes are excellent. I'd also point out that Renato hasn't coached any athletes to the level of Rita Jeptoo when she was banned for EPO or Genzebe Dibaba when her coach was busted with EPO. It seems to me when the very best athletes, coaches and EPO come together we do see performances that clean coaching cannot match.

Clerk, Seppelt didn't want to inform public about doping, only. If this was his final goal, he had to specify the level of the runners part of his investigation. Instead, he used a "not widespread" phenomen, regarding unknown athletes, as something very common, for real elite too (otherwise, no scoop...).

If positive athletes were the top doped only (Mathew Kisorio, Rita Jeptoo, Emily Chebet and Wilson Erupe), all road runners, plus Agatha Jeruto (strong athlete, but not really one of the best in the World), nobody had to think about "widespread doping" in Kenya, involving, as general conjecture, all the best track runners, when there is NO SUSPICION at all about anybody of them.

More than 90% of the positive athletes are unknown runners in Kenya. Many of them don't have any manager, and go to compete in small races using fake managers, who normally go to cheat them, stealing their prizes. This happens in Mexico, Brazil, China, Korea and other part of Asia. These athletes come back home, and after two years never received one shilling of their prize.

Somebody can ask : "if this is the situation, why some of them continue to go in this Countries, competing without any guarantee to see their prize paid ?

Because these athletes are so poor that, in spite of bad experiences of other athletes, they need TO DREAM this can be a way for changing their lives. Go to look at the career of 90% of the positive athletes, and you can discover they NEVER go to compete for two following years in the same Country, because cheated by their fake managers.

The projection of this situation on the real "elite athletics" in Kenya is an unfair exercise of putting everybody in the same potts, like to think that Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi can be in the same pot of a soccer kenyan player.

If the investigation of Seppelt had the final goal to show, and to explain, the REAL SITUATION in Kenya, this could be something praiseworthy. But his final goal was to build a scoop, using something not related with the best athletes in order to create a lot of smoke, without fire. This is, in my opinion, a "criminal action" against sport, for making stronger his image as champion of antidoping, showing indifference to the fate of clean kenyan athletes, and of the movement of kenyan runners generally.

Sorry, I can't have any respect for somebody acting in this way.

test2 wrote:

[quote]Mr. Obvious wrote:

I

3) . I'd also point out that Renato hasn't coached any athletes to the level of Rita Jeptoo when she was banned for EPO or Genzebe Dibaba when her coach was busted with EPO. It seems to me when the very best athletes, coaches and EPO come together we do see performances that clean coaching cannot match.

Renato coached Rita Jeptoo earlier in her career before she got sick mind disease and ran 2:18.

Nope -- not paid. As I've said many times, I do this for free.Here I don't adhere so strongly to Renato, but I go even further and question the use of EPO at altitude for elites and non-elites, and for Africans and non-Africans, without distinction. I only question it, not attempting to give any authoritative answer. One "hi-lo" study finding 20 second improvements over 5K, for a group of "well trained" volunteers, leads me to wonder how much more EPO would bring on top of that. It's a risk/reward question, where I suppose (but could be wrong) the risk is increased by doping, while the extra reward diminishes.It's not a question of being a doctor, but a question of statistics. The final goal isn't more red blood cells, but faster race times, and the science of finding correlations with numbers is in the domain of mathematics, not medicine.

Right, well, the problem is that even if we concede every bit of that argument to you (which I'm not at all willing to do since you marshal absolutely nothing in the way of evidence and just make statistical guesses), is that even if it is not effective, runners are actually taking EPO. At least some of them are elite athletes and elite Kenyans. Whether it works or not is a sleight-of-hand distraction.

rekrunner wrote:

Here I don't adhere so strongly to Renato, but I go even further and question the use of EPO at altitude for elites and non-elites, and for Africans and non-Africans, without distinction. I only question it, not attempting to give any authoritative answer. One "hi-lo" study finding 20 second improvements over 5K, for a group of "well trained" volunteers, leads me to wonder how much more EPO would bring on top of that. It's a risk/reward question, where I suppose (but could be wrong) the risk is increased by doping, while the extra reward diminishes.

Statistics are nothing without interpretation.

So here's a statistical one for you.

UKAD has not caught and sanctioned a single British distance runner during the period of its existence.

Several Kenyan athletes have been caught and sanctioned over the same period.

What is the interpretation?

Some could - and probably would - interpret this as Kenyan athletes being dirtier than British athletes.

I'm British, but I don't share that view. My view that the Brits are somehow getting away with it more.

Your thoughts?

Hajjo Seppelt produced damning evidence against Russia, largely thanks to the whistleblower.

However in the case of Kenya, all he has done is conjecture. he has made trip after trip to Kenya and is yet to produce solid evidence of doping at the highest level

fred wrote:

test2 wrote:

[quote]Mr. Obvious wrote:

I

3) . I'd also point out that Renato hasn't coached any athletes to the level of Rita Jeptoo when she was banned for EPO or Genzebe Dibaba when her coach was busted with EPO. It seems to me when the very best athletes, coaches and EPO come together we do see performances that clean coaching cannot match.

Renato coached Rita Jeptoo earlier in her career before she got sick mind disease and ran 2:18.

Fred, i recognize that your response is tongue in cheek, but I'll give a serious answer anyway. Time doesn't tell everything in a race, particularly a marathon. without a tailwind, Boston is a tough course. In 2014 Shalane Flanagan set a hard early pace in that race then Jeptoo blew everyone's doors off the in the last 5k. some of her mile splits late in the race were faster than the male winner's (Meb's). That was one of the most dominant marathons a women has ever run. She got busted soon after.

rekrunner wrote:

My stand is that Seppelt, after trying four times, has still given us no real information about ELITE doping in Kenya.

Shaker wrote:

Hajjo Seppelt produced damning evidence against Russia, largely thanks to the whistleblower.

However in the case of Kenya, all he has done is conjecture. he has made trip after trip to Kenya and is yet to produce solid evidence of doping at the highest level

Renato Canova wrote:

The projection of this situation on the real "elite athletics" in Kenya is an unfair exercise of putting everybody in the same potts,

Again, I fail to see that he is making a specific point about doping at the highest of the elite level. First, for him and the general audience, 2:05 and 2:15 marathoners are the same. He is making a point about competitive runners in Kenya, not Elite.

If he wanted a scoop to target Elites, he would have spoke about the owner of the HATC, Lornah Kiplagat, where the drug waste were found.

He is making a point about the general context of doping in Kenya. Your connections to the Elite runners make it feel as i he were targeting you, and Elites.

I don't see it that way. I see a very valid picture of doping, generally, in Kenya.

I don't think what he's saying about the testing window is true. Can anyone else clarify?If they come during your window and you're not there = missed testIf they come at another time and find you they test you; if they don't find you, no repercussions. If that's the case you just don't open your door and as long as they don't see you they can't say you refused the test.Things I've heard/experienced about testing:Testers asking if it was a good time or should they come back laterAthletes running away from the track when testers turn upTesters asking around to find out where an athlete lives (by the time they find his place, he probably already knows they're coming)Testers never coming during the designated window.Athletes not turning up for the blood tests they were notified about.

Renato Canova wrote:

2) About urine controlls : these tests are ALWAYS by surprise. Officials (IAAF or WADA is the same) arrive in some training camp at any time of the day, without respecting the individual "Windows" of the athletes (since almost each of them put as window the period between 8pm and 9pm, when are sure to be in the camp). Officials wait the come back of the athletes from their training in the morning, and start to take samples of urine. On the contrary of what often happens in Europe, in Kenya NEVER there was some athlete refuring to be controlled because legally not in their window (how they could have the right to do). Everybody accepts the control in any moment of the day, and the task force in charge knows very well this behavior.

Clerk wrote:

With regards to testing in Kenya, it has been shown that micro dosing overnight can go undetected by a urine test the next morning. In fact, this is the technique recommended by the doctor in Seppelt's documentary: a few hundred units intravenously every day or every other day. It has been shown that drinking a liter of water an hour before a sample is taken can mask the fluctuations in Biopassport markers caused by EPO.

I understand that circumstances dictate informing athletes the night before. I would rather have that than nothing. But please don't pretend that there are no interventions in those 9.5 hours that a doped athlete could take to make sure they come up clean the next day. Please don't pretend that doping techniques have not adapted to testing.

Correct, a lot can be done when you're "glowing" as was explained by Landis and Hamilton. Also likely the reason why Armstrong refused to be tested for an hour in the South of France claiming the tester had no proof of ID. It's hard to believe RC wouldn't know that blood testing couldn't be manipulated...but I suppose it's consistent with his assertion, against all odds, that drugs don't work on the cream of the cream!

I explain better what normally happens.

How you know, every athlete in the whereabouts system has to identify a window of one hour, every day, during which has to stay in one well defined place. During that time, if some antidoping official comes for testing, and doesn't find the athlete, there is a "missed test". Three missed tests in one year bring to the ban, exactly like a failed test.

1) Kenyan athletes stay in training camps, and, also during periods different from their official window, the most part of times live their, without going around (if not for very short period during the day). Normally, officials testing athletes never go in a camp for one athlete only, but look for many of them, since every training camp of high level (for example, Kaptagat for Global with Eliud Kipchoge, Brimin Kipruto, Hivin Kiyeng, Linda Rotich, Viola Kibiwott and Others, or Iten for Demadonna with Jairus Birech, Silas Kiplagat, Thomas Longosiwa, Jane Kisa, Clement Kemboi, Abel Mutai, Mary Keitany, or Iten again with Global (Ronald Kwemoi, Florence Kiplagat, Abel Kirui), or Kapsabet with Rosa (Stanley Biwott, Jemima Sumgong), or Eldoret for Demadonna (Eunice Sum, Mercy Cherono), or Iten for Rosa again (Asbel Kiprop), or the Group of Ricky Simms (Vivian Cheruiyot, Hellen Obiri) or several Others in different camps) have many athletes in top 10 in the World.

2) The officials can't test all the best athletes living in one camp, during the window of one hour (since normally everybody prefer as window the period after dinner, between 8 and 9pm), so they arrive in the morning, waiting in the camp the athletes coming back after their first training session.

3) Legally, some athlete who has something to hide can refuse the control at that time, asking to be tested during his official window. If you really think they can use some microdose, for example, refusing the test at 9am, they can have 11 hours of time for some practice which somebody explained in this thread, in order to cover the effect of doping (exactly what somebody suppose can be done during the night in case of blood doping, when they have to go for blood test in the early morning, knowing about the appointment from 8pm of the previous day).

4) But, really, NEVER HAPPENED THAT SOME ATHLETE REFUSED A TEST OUT OF HIS OFFICIAL WINDOW, because everybody is totally tranquil about the test, for the simple reason they don't use anything.

5) I never met any kenyan athlete running away from the track because of testers. I know of some athlete (not Kenyan) running out from some camp while informed there were testers around. For this, you have to look at some athlete belonging to European Countries, with European coaches of different nationality, belonging to some Country well know for doping.... and the IAAF department knows the situation, and these athletes are on the target.

6) Yes, testers many times have to ask around for finding the house of some new athlete, for the first time in the whereabout system. However, this can happen the first time only, after this the task force knows perfectly where athletes live, if they are not in a training camp. I hope that the fact in Iten or Kaptagat or Nyahururu there are not roads with names, and houses with civic number, can't be considered a specific aid for covering doping... since this is the situation in African villages, and Letsrun posters have to stop thinking Iten or Kaptagat are organized like New York.

7) I already explained because testers don't come during the designated window. But this is not an advantage, is a disadvantage if there is something to hide, and I explained the reasons of this behavior for the official testers.

8) Athletes MUST be in the house of Paul Scott for blood tests, when convoked. If are not there, they have a missed test. So, nobody "doesn't turn up" when convoked. This is a real lie.

Rekrunner please tell me how Cathal Lombard improved by 2 mins over 10k and almost a minute over 5k if it wasn't the copious amounts of EPO he was injecting. From a good national level runner to one of the fastest Caucasians on the planet.

just sayin wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Somebody thinking athletes can do something for changing their test, during the time occurring between 8pm and 5am of the next day (9 hours) is completely mentally sick, and doesn't know anything about the normal life of the best kenyan athletes, 95% of them living in training camps.

In other words, about blood tests there are no possibilities of any manipulation.

If you are microdosing EPO and testosterone every night , being notified the evening before a test is an advantage

It'd be even a bigger advantage if your doping is scheduled in the morning because you'd have a ~24hrs window.

Yeah, this kind of doping control (test) is ONLY BETTER than no test.

I am not saying this happen but it's a possibility.

Testers arrive and wait at camp. Someone in the camp sends word out to the athletes. Anyone who might have taken something recently goes to their friend's house for chai. No positive test, no missed test.

Being informed about the test the night before makes it easy. You schedule your drug taking for 10pm. If you get a call at 8pm, you miss that day. If you get no call, you know you're safe.

The system is not as strict as it should be and thus is open to abuse.

Other examples of Kenyan athletics that aren't strict and are thus abused.

Courses aren't marshalled well; rampant cheating takes place as happened in Discovery Half Marathon this year (but also pretty much any cross country race and even the occasional 10k in the AK track series)

New birth certs are easy to get so athletes lose a few years to become junior. In some cases, they may genuinely not know their age but in the vast majority, they do.

There is a huge possibility to cheat by taking short-cuts and skipping laps, by faking your age and by doping. Your stance is that Kenyan athletes take two of those cheating options but are too moral to dope.

I was really only talking about altitude (hi lo) training without EPO versus altitude training (hi lo) with EPO.But as you asked so politely, even saying please, I don't have any inside knowledge about Cathal Lombard, but I am aware of significant confounding factors:- he took EPO- he changed his coach- he changed his training, decreasing the volume, and increasing the intensityI suppose:- he was not doing the right training before EPO- with the right mentality, and similar training changes, he would have achieved a similar magnitude of improvements with "clean" hi-lo training and no EPOI wouldn't make the mistake of generalizing from the unique case of Cathal Lombard -- even among EPO users, he's a massive outlier.

Irish gypsies wrote:

Rekrunner please tell me how Cathal Lombard improved by 2 mins over 10k and almost a minute over 5k if it wasn't the copious amounts of EPO he was injecting. From a good national level runner to one of the fastest Caucasians on the planet.