Report: Chinese 10,000 WR holder Wang Junxia admitted to Chinese doping in 1995

Nutella1 wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Just becuse they told everyone how hard they trained does not prove they trained harder than any other athlete.

Keep in mind that there were basically hundreds of athletes in Mo's army. He trained everyone that hard. Only few "survived". It's what Jack Daniels refers to as throwing eggs to the wall and see what sticks.

Without doping we would never had heard of his runners as they did not have the talent no matter what bs was writtten about their training

Nutella1 wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

It still doesn't fully make sense of the 1993 records, which were outliers for so many of these athletes, including Wang.

That's an understatement:

3000m

Athelete Beijing Time Best time outside of Beijing

Wang Junxia 8:06 8:27

Qu Yunxia 8:12 8:28

Zhang Linli 8:16 8:29

Ma Liyan 8:18 (no other recorded time)

Zhang Lirong 8:22 8:31

I think everyone here can agree that the total distance covered in China was probably around 2850m, not 3000.

In other words, the track would have to be exactly 380m long.

The naked eye would not be able to tell a 380m track from a 400m track.

End of thread.

Ridiculous. There is no chance on earth the track was short. Answer me on these points to convince me that it wasn't a 400m track.

1. The same track was used for the 1990 Asian Games. Nothing out of the ordinary.

2. The men ran ordinary times. There's not one standing men's Chinese national record from the 1993 games, while there are ten Chinese women's records from the 1993 National Games.

3. The women did it again to a smaller extent in Shanghai in 1997. The same venue for the Diamond League. They didn't shrink it just for the women.

4. Omega timed the meet. You don't think they would notice?

5. How the hell would the hurdlers hit there marks? Setting up each hurdle 5% closer would completely throw them all off and the events would be ruined.

6. Ma Miaolan set huge personal bests in the long jump, high jump and javelin during her heptathlon national record at the 1993 National Games. Did they use a short tape to measure them?

The results from 1993 and 1997 are from drugs and training. Why has no one done it before or since? You can't do it. They had a large group of women that Ma literally beat into shape and they ran 25 miles a day, really hard and took every drug imaginable. Talent + drugs + training no one else would do.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Nutella1 wrote:

Keep in mind that there were basically hundreds of athletes in Mo's army. He trained everyone that hard. Only few "survived". It's what Jack Daniels refers to as throwing eggs to the wall and see what sticks.

Without doping we would never had heard of his runners as they did not have the talent no matter what bs was writtten about their training

You mean Salazar?

Same stadium, but the track could have been altered/resurfaced in the meantime

Well, their men are really really slow. With the short track, they were still slow. When was the last time you saw a semi decent Chinese MALE runner? Like, never?

Pretty sure you're referring to the 1500 where only partial clips are availble online. I believe they altered the starting location and ran 1400 instead of 1500.

As mentioned above, a 380m track looks identical to a 400m to the naked eye.

Do you have proof that they hit their marks?

I said it before. The track was destroyed. Did you even read my post?

jjjjj wrote:

Two old articles, the first about Junren's athletes testing positive for testosterone and epo in 2000-1 (the article includes an amusing note about IAAF President Jacques Rogge, a Belgian physician, supposedly being very strict about controlling doping in track), the second about the 1995 break of Wang and others from his control, apparently the occasion for the drug letter mentioned now.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2001/jul/25/athletics.duncanmackay%20http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/record-breaking-athletes-desert-gruelling-regime-of-mas-army-1567048.html

Please note the articles are speculative and no athletes were named.

Ma was a mean task master that indeed abused his athletes mentally and physically with his training program. As you may recall he became a celebrated celebrity in China making money off of his endorsements of the famous elixirs he was giving his athletes. The athletes were treated like slaves. They were fed up with abuse and the lack of any of the money being made by Ma to come their way. There was talk in the training camp of how to take Ma down. It was primarily based on the money aspect.

Its strange how this letter has just surfaced when there have been a couple of investigative documentaries out of HK and China on the rise and fall of the Chinese women.

Lets hope some of the women can be interviewed now and get their side of the story vs all the speculation that is circulating now.

'The results from 1993 and 1997 are from drugs and training. Why has no one done it before or since? You can't do it. They had a large group of women that Ma literally beat into shape and they ran 25 miles a day, really hard and took every drug imaginable. Talent + drugs + training no one else would do.'

No, its down to drugs

Even dopers usually have to exert some restriction - they had none

Russian/ East German women had similar times and some even better on middle distances and sprints. Similar free for all with drugs and little competitions oustide country

The only reason they did not run faster over 5 - 10km is it was not on the Olympic program and the 3,000m only came in during 80's

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Russian/ East German women had similar times and some even better on middle distances and sprints.

The only reason they did not run faster over 5 - 10km is it was not on the Olympic program and the 3,000m only came in during 80's

It would be nice if you had facts for once to back up your claims.

East German record over 1500m would be Christiane Wartenberg 3:57.

That is 7 seconds behind Wang or in other words - an eternity.

For which there is no evidence.

Like, August when they put a man in the 100m final of the world championships and won a medal in the 4x100m. Check the results for the other national games. The men ran about what they usually run. The women were off the charts.

I can't believe you think they started 100m up and no one noticed or said anything. Not Omega, not the foreign press or other foreigners in attendance. I have spoken with non-Chinese who were there and they ran 1500m. That isn't in doubt.

There's a lot that goes into timing an event like this. In order for it to be timed, Omega would have to have been in on it, and their reputation would be destroyed if they had collaborated. They didn't.

Yes. Look at the results. Two men broke 50 in the 400h and the Asian record was broken in the womens without crashing into the hurdles. Take a hurdler and push up the marks a bit and see how they do. It's disastrous and it's immediately obvious. There was a meet in America years ago where one flight of hurdles was put on the wrong set of marks and it threw off all the competitors. Now you're talking about backing every hurdle up. Didn't happen.

When?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'The results from 1993 and 1997 are from drugs and training. Why has no one done it before or since? You can't do it. They had a large group of women that Ma literally beat into shape and they ran 25 miles a day, really hard and took every drug imaginable. Talent + drugs + training no one else would do.'

No, its down to drugs

Even dopers usually have to exert some restriction - they had none

Russian/ East German women had similar times and some even better on middle distances and sprints. Similar free for all with drugs and little competitions oustide country

The only reason they did not run faster over 5 - 10km is it was not on the Olympic program and the 3,000m only came in during 80's

They didn't have EPO. And I'm sure they were blood doping, but they weren't running 25 miles a day hard. You're right that the focus was on shorter distances and the field events.

Sonia o'sullivan lost out 2 gold medals in 1993

Now says she knew they were up to something

Nutella1 wrote:

Same stadium, but the track could have been altered/resurfaced in the meantime

Yes, this was the secret.

The track was 1/2 an inch lower.

Honestly, and I've written this, maybe in direct dialogue with you, before, I am just agnostic about what happened.

I just an not able to wrap my mind around the idea that they were doing that many more drugs in '93 than they were at other times, including at other international meets. I've always favored some sort of combo solution, although I don't have any evidence for it. Of course nobody else has much in the way of evidence to support any other theory either.

Based on the Chinese swimmers 1994 performance at the world championship it is not like they were only wlling to dope in domestic competitions.

We knew damn well back then that obviously something wasn't right. Those times were and remain so far off the charts that obviously something had to be up. Proving it is a different story. Hate to tie this to PR's 2:15 marathon, but much like those Chinese gals that run is an anomaly. You know that someday down the road the truth will come out. She'll either fess up, slip up and someone else will reveal it, or testing will meet the level that whatever it was she took will result in a positive test. I'm sure there's samples frozen somewhere.....

If it looks like a duck wrote:

Those times were and remain so far off the charts that obviously something had to be up. Hate to tie this to PR's 2:15 marathon, but much like those Chinese gals that run is an anomaly.

Apples and oranges. If you want to compare the Chinese runners to Paula's 2:15, then I hate to tell you but Paula's 2:15 is way off the charts.

The Chinese 10,000m and 3000m are now pretty much in line with the 5000m or even a bit weaker.

Nutella1 wrote:

If it looks like a duck wrote:

Those times were and remain so far off the charts that obviously something had to be up. Hate to tie this to PR's 2:15 marathon, but much like those Chinese gals that run is an anomaly.

Apples and oranges. If you want to compare the Chinese runners to Paula's 2:15, then I hate to tell you but Paula's 2:15 is way off the charts.

The Chinese 10,000m and 3000m are now pretty much in line with the 5000m or even a bit weaker.

Right, well i don't want to argue that anybody here is clean. But I do think they are still apples to oranges, but in a different way to you.

If you were going to have an anomalous result that was clean, a 1-off like Radcliffe's seems much more likely than the Chinese. After all this is much better than her next best run, but even if you scotched this time she would still be the WR holder. Here you had a string of women vastly outperforming anything that they would ever run before or after, in one meet. They had a string of women running WRs multiple times in close succession, in prelim heats, and in multiple events within the same meet.

If they were really forced to take the drugs, that is absolutely sickening.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

If you were going to have an anomalous result that was clean, a 1-off like Radcliffe's seems much more likely than the Chinese. After all this is much better than her next best run, but even if you scotched this time she would still be the WR holder. Here you had a string of women vastly outperforming anything that they would ever run before or after, in one meet. They had a string of women running WRs multiple times in close succession, in prelim heats, and in multiple events within the same meet.

Lydiard said if it had been just one runner that he'd have been sceptical, but since there were many of them, then he knew that they were legitimate performances.

McMillan calculator has some serious flaws. Best to avoid it. More accurate comparisons are available.

None of the best women have seriously pressed for a 10000m record in years, no doubt some could get close. True though that Radcliffe's record is as suspect as any, comparatively at least in mathematical terms.

He said Russian / East German. Kazankina ran 3:52