Former Columbia runner and American citizen Lisa Nemec (runs for Croatia) positive on doping control

Bill ran up to 200 miles a week, and he got his toothpaste drug tested every week.

ck3237 wrote:

Bill Rogers ran only 8:58 in college and then ran a 2:09 marathon, was he on drugs?

I'm not sure how you can assert so strongly he wasn't.

It's possible. It'd be wrong to assume any professional athlete from any era was 100% clean.

Skeptic99 wrote:

However, unlike Wejo, at least Paula has performances at other distances that indicate high talent. None of Wejo's non-10k performances are anywhere close to his low 28s. None. His 1500m, 5k, marathon all indicate much less physiologically ability. I have absolutely zero empirical evidence that Wejo cheated, nor have I ever heard any credible connection between him and suspect individuals. That said, his rapid improvement and large apparent differences in physiological performances cause me to scratch my head in the same manner as when presented solely with Lisa N's progression.

Weldon's improvement was dramatic. But I think there ares some significant but huge differences between his improvement's and Lisa's.

1) Weldon's improvement after college was 20 seconds per mile (30:06 to 28:06). Lisa's improvement is 30 seconds per mile - 50% greater than that. Basically from 16:30 equivalent to 15:00 equivalent for 5000.

50% is a ton more.

Then you add in the fact that Weldon wasn't a year round runner until senior year of HS. Weldon actually ran like 30:30 in his 3rd year of year round running. He improved to the 28:30s 6 years after that.

2) Weldon's lack of great success at any distance but 10,000 to me is a strong sign that he was clean. If Weldon was doped, he'd have been able to roll an amazing 5000 or marathon. Is there some sort of drug that I don't know about that works only for the 10,000?

His 10,000 success shows he was extremely focused on training a ton at altitude and really nailing the event he was best at. He wasn't a superstar so what's the point of going out and running 13:40 for 5000. It's not going to get you to the Olympics.

ck3237 wrote:

Bill Rogers ran only 8:58 in college and then ran a 2:09 marathon, was he on drugs?

Totally different era. People barely knew how to train in the 1970s. Remember in the 1960s, Arthur Lydiard was able to dominate the Olympics as they were the only ones training properly.

Rodgers graduated college in 1970. He started winning Boston in 1975.

rojo wrote:Come on guy. Let's don't over think this. Don't act like one of those guys who thinks they are so smart they appear stupid.

By Eastern Europe, I'm referring to anything east of the Berlin Wall.

Lord beJeebus rojo, east of the Berlin Wall?!?

Let us pause for a brief moment of info-tainment. The Berlin Wall encircled West Berlin, lying deep in the heart of East Germany. The Berlin Wall was in no way (except maybe symbolically) a geographic dividing line between Eastern and Western Bloc countries during the Cold War. I think you are trying to conjure the notion of "Iron Curtain" maybe; not a physical barrier per se, but in any event one more consistent with your obvious meaning.

I think it's long past time for you to mail back your Ivy degree... :-)

fercrissakes...! wrote:

rojo wrote:Come on guy. Let's don't over think this. Don't act like one of those guys who thinks they are so smart they appear stupid.

By Eastern Europe, I'm referring to anything east of the Berlin Wall.

Lord beJeebus rojo, east of the Berlin Wall?!?

Let us pause for a brief moment of info-tainment. The Berlin Wall encircled West Berlin, lying deep in the heart of East Germany. The Berlin Wall was in no way (except maybe symbolically) a geographic dividing line between Eastern and Western Bloc countries during the Cold War. I think you are trying to conjure the notion of "Iron Curtain" maybe; not a physical barrier per se, but in any event one more consistent with your obvious meaning.

I think it's long past time for you to mail back your Ivy degree... :-)

From the 1950s through most of the 80s Yugoslavia was considered part of the "Eastern Bloc"

Didn't Desi Davila make a similar improvement to this girl?

Like 16:XX for 5k in college to being a 2:22 marathoner and running down the Kenyans in Boston?

I am not implying either is doping, but the ability of females to make this kind of dramatic acclamation to the marathon seems to be somewhat common.

Was this aimed at me?

where is vento? wrote:From the 1950s through most of the 80s Yugoslavia was considered part of the "Eastern Bloc"

I would hope that statement would be obvious to any adult with a half-decent education. It ought to be easy to say that out loud and see nods of agreement around a room, when in the company of regular people.

My comments related solely to rojo's use of the "Berlin Wall" as a geographic separation between Eastern and Western Bloc countries. It only separated (physically at least) the almost completely isolated West Berlin from the adjacent East Berlin and surrounding East Germany.

You don't need to be training in Eastern Europe to be a doper. How about all these sub 2:25 American women? Are they all clean?

Just coming in here to make sure that Columbia runner and all the other apologists remember to show up in the Lamine Diack thread to illustrate that he could have been set up or that the charges are bogus. It's important that we don't jump to any conclusions about him either.

JAKIR wrote:

Just coming in here to make sure that Columbia runner and all the other apologists remember to show up in the Lamine Diack thread to illustrate that he could have been set up or that the charges are bogus. It's important that we don't jump to any conclusions about him either.

POD

The Champ wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Kwelio_Chemlany

What about this guy? Trained under Mick Byrne and couldn't break 14min for 5000m. After stagnating on the roads in the USA for years he moves back to Kenya for 'altitude training' and runs 2:06.

It's a fair question to ask. i've always meant to ask Mick Byrne about it as Mick is a straight shooter. I'd also like to ask Ray Treacy now if in hind sight he thinks Fagan was on EPO at Providence.

But I did ask Wesley Korir why he wasn't better in college. I mean Korir was pretty good. He was 3rd in the NCAA 5k as a senior - only losing to Chrs Solinsky (12:55) and Bobby Curtis (13:18). HIs reply was that when he went to America he had promised his mom he'd buy her a house. He was focused on money. He worked three jobs. Remember, he was working as a janitor for Louisville. So running was far from his #1 focus.

Maybe Chemlany is similar. If you are 33rd at NCAA xc as a junior while only doing the bare minimum, then that's pretty good.

ShilohGreathouse345 wrote:

Didn't Desi Davila make a similar improvement to this girl?

Like 16:XX for 5k in college to being a 2:22 marathoner and running down the Kenyans in Boston?

I am not implying either is doping, but the ability of females to make this kind of dramatic acclamation to the marathon seems to be somewhat common.

The difference is Stublic apparently failed a test. Details to follow, but that's the fact.

It didn't make her the GOAT, but it did make her good enough to live comfortably in a career a lot more exiting than working in an office or being a teacher.

The comment about Ivies can't be dopers makes me throw up in my mouth. As shown by their stewardship of the American government and economy, Ivy grads certainly will be unscrupulous to meet their own needs.

Do all us state-schooled unwashed masses get the benefit of the doubt as well?

ShilohGreathouse345 wrote:

Didn't Desi Davila make a similar improvement to this girl?

Like 16:XX for 5k in college to being a 2:22 marathoner and running down the Kenyans in Boston?

I am not implying either is doping, but the ability of females to make this kind of dramatic acclamation to the marathon seems to be somewhat common.

Not a bad comparison.

Desi's college PRs via her AZ State profile:

800: 2:10.21

1,500: 4:28.55

5,000: 16:17.45

10,000: 36:52.48

And from her USATF profile.. she didn't speed up until long after college:

2009: Outdoor bests – 5,000m, 16:02.15; 10,000m, 32:25.78(No. 5 in the USA); Half Marathon, 1:12:14; Marathon, 2:27:53 (No. 2 in the USA by T&FN)

2008: Outdoor bests – 10,000m, 33:18.56 (No. 2 in the USA); Half Marathon, 1:12.10; Marathon, 2:31:33

2007: Outdoor bests – 10,000m, 34:01.89; Half Marathon, 1:12:54

2006: Outdoor bests – 5,000m, 16:46.53; 10,000m, 34:35.48

2005: Outdoor bests – 5,000m, 16:32.15

She graduated college in 2005.

When she fails a drug test, then it's a fair comparison.

Lindsey Scherf went to an Ivy League School.

Dopers! wrote:

Lindsey Scherf went to an Ivy League School.

And Scherf's doping offense is a completely different situation as she refused a drug test due to her uncertainty of the status of an international TUE related to her asthma medication and due to race officials telling her BEFORE the race that it was unlikely there was going to be any drug testing afterwards as the race never had been drug tested before.

NVL wrote:

When she fails a drug test, then it's a fair comparison.

No shit. The discussion is about progression.

And it's a valid discussion because all we have about this positive test is a poorly translated, vague article. Not defending Nemec; just pointing out we don't really have any facts to go on.