The new WADA code allowes for cuts in bans for dopers who cooperate with the anti doping authorities, gives information that leads to other anti doping rule violations being uncovered. If the the information is substansial the ban can be avoided and the name of the athlete can be kept secret. It would be fun if the newly reported big name/s positives would do some underthebusthrowing. They would have to come up with something really good to have their name kept secret though.
People like you are the reason why I come back to letsrun. As a Kenyan, I am frequently hurt by the incredibly baseless and tasteless comments people post on the message boards. Every once in a while there is a voice of reason like yours that makes me not dismiss this site. If people here could see a local race in Kenya, where people come from the most rural parts of the country to try out their luck in this sport. Athletes who have been running every day for years and years just for the opportunity to do one race in Europe or America. Athletes who most of the time can't even afford a good pair of shoes or even three meals every day (let alone doses of EPO). Face it guys, Kenyans have a lot of passion for the sport, deep pools of talent and there is a culture of success associated with distance running.. Just like basketball in the US, football in Brazil and rugby in New Zealand. Any young child with a modicum of talent will give the sport a good try. That's why we are good! Of course there will be some people who will cheat. Anywhere where there is money/power at stake humans will cheat. But I assure you, it's a tiny fraction of the Kenyan running population. Isaiah Kiplagat and AK screw us over and they use doping as a weapon to try to shut runners up. That's why they would do insane things like suspending managers and announcing missed tests. We have issues, hopefully we will solve them soon. But just stop it with the hate for people you don't know or understand.
LRLurker wrote:
People like you are the reason why I come back to letsrun. As a Kenyan, I am frequently hurt by the incredibly baseless and tasteless comments people post on the message boards. Every once in a while there is a voice of reason like yours that makes me not dismiss this site. If people here could see a local race in Kenya, where people come from the most rural parts of the country to try out their luck in this sport. Athletes who have been running every day for years and years just for the opportunity to do one race in Europe or America. Athletes who most of the time can't even afford a good pair of shoes or even three meals every day (let alone doses of EPO). Face it guys, Kenyans have a lot of passion for the sport, deep pools of talent and there is a culture of success associated with distance running.. Just like basketball in the US, football in Brazil and rugby in New Zealand. Any young child with a modicum of talent will give the sport a good try. That's why we are good! Of course there will be some people who will cheat. Anywhere where there is money/power at stake humans will cheat. But I assure you, it's a tiny fraction of the Kenyan running population. Isaiah Kiplagat and AK screw us over and they use doping as a weapon to try to shut runners up. That's why they would do insane things like suspending managers and announcing missed tests. We have issues, hopefully we will solve them soon. But just stop it with the hate for people you don't know or understand.
So, why do you need these foreign agents & doctors then? I'm sure there are plenty of Kenyans who could take their places, since the performances of Kenyans over the years is based purely on talent alone.
LRLurker wrote:
People like you are the reason why I come back to letsrun. As a Kenyan, I am frequently hurt by the incredibly baseless and tasteless comments people post on the message boards. Every once in a while there is a voice of reason like yours that makes me not dismiss this site. If people here could see a local race in Kenya, where people come from the most rural parts of the country to try out their luck in this sport. Athletes who have been running every day for years and years just for the opportunity to do one race in Europe or America. Athletes who most of the time can't even afford a good pair of shoes or even three meals every day (let alone doses of EPO). Face it guys, Kenyans have a lot of passion for the sport, deep pools of talent and there is a culture of success associated with distance running.. Just like basketball in the US, football in Brazil and rugby in New Zealand. Any young child with a modicum of talent will give the sport a good try. That's why we are good! Of course there will be some people who will cheat. Anywhere where there is money/power at stake humans will cheat. But I assure you, it's a tiny fraction of the Kenyan running population. Isaiah Kiplagat and AK screw us over and they use doping as a weapon to try to shut runners up. That's why they would do insane things like suspending managers and announcing missed tests. We have issues, hopefully we will solve them soon. But just stop it with the hate for people you don't know or understand.
Then why are the investigative journalist coming up with so many cases where drugs and doctors to implement them are so easily available. Everybody has a sad story...doesn't make it excusable to cheat and steal money and fame from clean athletes. All of the reasons you listed above make cheating all that more advantageous for Kenyans. They don't have to even be able to afford it. Agents will gladly set everything up knowing the boost will provide more doe in their pockets as well as the athlete. If you don't get caught its win/win for the athlete and the agent. How are you soo sure it's a tiny fraction? You don't know any more than the people that claim that its every Kenyan. I have more faith in the investigative journalist that went and saw how easy it was to find a doctor willing to supply and implement drugs.
Be honest with yourself, If a Kenyan runner was really good, and taking EPO or blood doping meant the difference between staying in poverty or earning 6 figures +, what do you think most of them would choose? Actually you could substitute Kenyan with any segment of the world population and the answer would be the same.
DPL wrote:
LRLurker wrote:People like you are the reason why I come back to letsrun. As a Kenyan, I am frequently hurt by the incredibly baseless and tasteless comments people post on the message boards. Every once in a while there is a voice of reason like yours that makes me not dismiss this site. If people here could see a local race in Kenya, where people come from the most rural parts of the country to try out their luck in this sport. Athletes who have been running every day for years and years just for the opportunity to do one race in Europe or America. Athletes who most of the time can't even afford a good pair of shoes or even three meals every day (let alone doses of EPO). Face it guys, Kenyans have a lot of passion for the sport, deep pools of talent and there is a culture of success associated with distance running.. Just like basketball in the US, football in Brazil and rugby in New Zealand. Any young child with a modicum of talent will give the sport a good try. That's why we are good! Of course there will be some people who will cheat. Anywhere where there is money/power at stake humans will cheat. But I assure you, it's a tiny fraction of the Kenyan running population. Isaiah Kiplagat and AK screw us over and they use doping as a weapon to try to shut runners up. That's why they would do insane things like suspending managers and announcing missed tests. We have issues, hopefully we will solve them soon. But just stop it with the hate for people you don't know or understand.
So, why do you need these foreign agents & doctors then? I'm sure there are plenty of Kenyans who could take their places, since the performances of Kenyans over the years is based purely on talent alone.
That is not what he said.
[quote]rekrunner wrote:
When there is no evidence, it's correct to say it's belief without evidence.'
There may be circumstantial evidence enough to investigate further, whether AK are up the the job is a different matter.
Dr Gabriela Rosa has been involved in athletics since coaching Moses Tanui to WC 10,000 Gold. The year earlier before Tanui was easily dropped by Eamonn Martin in the CG 10,000m final.
Rosa Snr also worked in cycling. I don't think he was employed as a mechanic.
There is no proof - we know of - as yet but with an increasing number of their athletes being busted they should not be surprised by the increased scrutiny.
Steroids. Think Lance managed to overturn one of those as well.
LRLurker wrote:
People like you are the reason why I come back to letsrun. As a Kenyan, I am frequently hurt by the incredibly baseless and tasteless comments people post on the message boards... We have issues, hopefully we will solve them soon. But just stop it with the hate for people you don't know or understand.
Tastlessness might happen anywhere on the internet. But baseless? You end your comment admitting that this discussion is not, in fact, baseless.
Denial and apologism is what draws a lot of the ire. Until you wrote that you recognized the issue, I lumped you into that same group. It is frustrating to see others try to deny that there is a problem at all, or to minimize the problem.
There are issues with AK. We don't know these issues, we don't live there. Instead of getting angry at us for not knowing, do your part and share the news and problems.
Drain the Swamp wrote:
The East Africans are the best distance runners in the world and have been since they burst upon the world stage in the 1960s, but it's becoming increasingly evident that a problem exists and has for some time. I think there are still many great performances over the past 15-20 years that were not aided by doping -- I just don't know which ones.
As someone who has always been a big fan of the sport (but not very good myself), this kinda sucks. I recall reading an interview with Shorter years ago where he said if something were not done to curtail this sort of thing, medals would boil down to who had the best chemist. We're probably not far from that now.
This...is pretty much exactly how I feel.
under the bus wrote:
The new WADA code allowes for cuts in bans for dopers who cooperate with the anti doping authorities, gives information that leads to other anti doping rule violations being uncovered. If the the information is substansial the ban can be avoided and the name of the athlete can be kept secret. It would be fun if the newly reported big name/s positives would do some underthebusthrowing. They would have to come up with something really good to have their name kept secret though.
Radcliffe gets a free pass, by accusing everyone else.
clerk wrote:
LRLurker wrote:People like you are the reason why I come back to letsrun. As a Kenyan, I am frequently hurt by the incredibly baseless and tasteless comments people post on the message boards... We have issues, hopefully we will solve them soon. But just stop it with the hate for people you don't know or understand.
Tastlessness might happen anywhere on the internet. But baseless? You end your comment admitting that this discussion is not, in fact, baseless.
Denial and apologism is what draws a lot of the ire. Until you wrote that you recognized the issue, I lumped you into that same group. It is frustrating to see others try to deny that there is a problem at all, or to minimize the problem.
There are issues with AK. We don't know these issues, we don't live there. Instead of getting angry at us for not knowing, do your part and share the news and problems.
yr like the pundits who defend their actions by saying 'I don't know - I'm just asking questions."
as in 'I'm not saying Obama was born in Kenya! - I'm just asking questions!"
DukeBoss wrote:
Doping is an integral part of the sport. I dare to bet that a majority is doped to some extend. So there is a minority "clean". On the top this minority is near 0.
This is circular reasoning at its finest.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
So, why do you need these foreign agents & doctors then? I'm sure there are plenty of Kenyans who could take their places, since the performances of Kenyans over the years is based purely on talent alone.
That is not what he said.[/quote]
So, why do you state the obvious?. It's a fair question (considering the obvious thread title) and here's another, why, when ever there's some kind of drug bust, scandal or stench in Kenya, are there nearly always Italians or Dutch in the mix?
So? wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:So, why do you need these foreign agents & doctors then? I'm sure there are plenty of Kenyans who could take their places, since the performances of Kenyans over the years is based purely on talent alone.
That is not what he said.
So, why do you state the obvious?. It's a fair question (considering the obvious thread title) and here's another, why, when ever there's some kind of drug bust, scandal or stench in Kenya, are there nearly always Italians or Dutch in the mix?[/quote]
It's not fair to lump the Dutch together with the Italians when it comes to doping.
Neutral Observertard wrote:
So, why do you state the obvious?. It's a fair question (considering the obvious thread title) and here's another, why, when ever there's some kind of drug bust, scandal or stench in Kenya, are there nearly always Italians or Dutch in the mix?
It's not fair to lump the Dutch together with the Italians when it comes to doping.[/quote]
Mate, I've noticed you keep coming on to threads with one liners which I suspect in your mind are convincing you how clever you are, but trust me you're coming across as a dickhead. So, unless it's a valid question, it's a good idea to add some reasoning to the one liners.
No one said it was on talent alone...it is talent and infrastructure. The European management agencies are investing in the training infrastructure that allow runners to succeed where AK is not. Management agencies provide training locations, coaching, physio, food, moral support, Pay for many of the athletes to travel to compete (at least when a runner is establishing him or herself. They are taking all the financial risk.
One previous poster tried to "prove" that foreign athletes must be cheating by looking at the number of sub 2:07 marathons since 2001. This poster asserted that there have been an explosion of sub 2:07 marathons since 2008 so this must point towards cheating. This is your classic "post hoc ergo propter hoc" situation (for all you Latin and/or philosophy majors)--just because something happens chronologically after an event does not mean (rarely ever means) it was caused by it. This is a basic logical fallacy I taught to middle schoolers back in the day. Just because times improved does not mean doping caused it. As a point of reference look at the "explosion" of new sub 4min milers in the us since 2001
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/category-lists/1476-tafn-us-sub-400-milers
. Does this "prove" Americans are doping?
The fact is, these management agencies are investing more in the training infrastructure as a result of expanded purses in international marathons. It is no longer just the majors, it is seoul, mumbai, portugal, the rock and roll series, etc. Since managers are investing more in terms of coaching, physio, etc it should not be a surprise that the times have become more competitive.
To suggest that this "proves" (or at least suggests) wide spread cheating, doesn't understand all the factors that go into developing a successful stable of runners. There can be a myriad of causes.
One Liner wrote:
Mate, I've noticed you keep coming on to threads with one liners which I suspect in your mind are convincing you how clever you are, but trust me you're coming across as a dickhead. So, unless it's a valid question, it's a good idea to add some reasoning to the one liners.
Americans always sound funny when they use the word mate.
agip wrote:
I'll believe top Kenyan performances are EPOaided when there is evidence that those performances are EPOaided. And not before.
agip, you really are a special class of retard. I won't bother reading the whole thread to see if someone's pointed this out to you yet again, but Jeptoo is FAR from the only elite Kenyan to be caught over the years. I suppose if you want to be enough of a thimble-pecker to set the bar for what constitutes "top Kenyan" at Jeptoo's level, fine -- by that standard, the only good baseball player who ever used drugs is Barry Bonds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athleticsThat list alone has 32 Kenyan names on it. Toss John Ngugi if you want since he missed a test instead of flunking one, but for God's sake. at least move your head from your ass into ordinary sand.
VAcoach wrote:
No one said it was on talent alone...it is talent and infrastructure. The European management agencies are investing in the training infrastructure that allow runners to succeed where AK is not. Management agencies provide training locations, coaching, physio, food, moral support, Pay for many of the athletes to travel to compete (at least when a runner is establishing him or herself. They are taking all the financial risk.
One previous poster tried to "prove" that foreign athletes must be cheating by looking at the number of sub 2:07 marathons since 2001. This poster asserted that there have been an explosion of sub 2:07 marathons since 2008 so this must point towards cheating. This is your classic "post hoc ergo propter hoc" situation (for all you Latin and/or philosophy majors)--just because something happens chronologically after an event does not mean (rarely ever means) it was caused by it. This is a basic logical fallacy I taught to middle schoolers back in the day. Just because times improved does not mean doping caused it. As a point of reference look at the "explosion" of new sub 4min milers in the us since 2001
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/category-lists/1476-tafn-us-sub-400-milers. Does this "prove" Americans are doping?
The fact is, these management agencies are investing more in the training infrastructure as a result of expanded purses in international marathons. It is no longer just the majors, it is seoul, mumbai, portugal, the rock and roll series, etc. Since managers are investing more in terms of coaching, physio, etc it should not be a surprise that the times have become more competitive.
To suggest that this "proves" (or at least suggests) wide spread cheating, doesn't understand all the factors that go into developing a successful stable of runners. There can be a myriad of causes.
You are just ignoring the massive increase in positive tests. Does EPO just work on cyclists and not runners?
Do you need to be a doctor to coach. Get real Brother Colm managed without all this pseudo hi-tech approach its BS and a cover for what is really going on
I used to believe as there were very few positives until I found out about the lack of testing over there. Still there are dozens of Kenyans busted for doping on the IAAF doping site. People will cheat even if it does not provide a benefit.
The dopers are the problem not the accusers and in all countries. Don't shoot the messenger(s)!