Benji Durden

go benji go wrote:

Benji:

was this workout one of your staples for mara training:

3 hr run 1st hr easy 2nd hr race pace 3rd hr recovery.

also what are your recollections about racing against Kevin Moats

Nope, that sounds like the Japanese to me.

I never ran my marathon race pace in training. My long runs were 6:40-7:00/mile pace (in cotton sweats and a rain suit when I was in my prime) for 2:20-2:45 or 20-24 miles. In the afternoon I would come back (still in sweats) and run 45-90 minutes at about 6:00/mile pace.

"Speed work" was usually about 10K pace in full sweats. 800's in 2:15-2:20 or 1000's in in 2:50-3:00. I would usually run no more that 5K wroth of fast in a 2 hr to 2.5 hr workout. Same afternoon workout as the "long day".

My other weekly workout was usually a race: 10k-25k as fast as I could run given no taper. By 1979, I was sub usually sub-30 in the 10K and sub-45 in a 15K and could run under 1:18 for 25k tired.

As for Kevin Moats, I only remember racing him once; the 1991 Atlanta Marathon. Before then, he was just another local runner I would see at races. We would be running at the same time, but I wasn't really "racing" him. His best years were after I left Atlanta.

In 1991, I returned to Atlanta (I moved from Atlanta in 1983 and ended up in Boulder in 1985) to run the Atlanta Marathon. I was thinking it would be a training race since I had run one in a few years and this was to be my masters marathon debut. My plan was to go out easy and try to run around 2:30. Kevin and some other local runners went to the front in the 1st mile and ran 7:00 to warmup (it was chilly that morning). I gradually got faster and around 5-6 miles I began to click off sub-6:00 pace. I think it was about 10 miles where I caught Kevin. I began to have visions of winning and we raced each other for a few miles till maybe 25K. I went on to win in 2:28:52. Kevin had won all but one of the ATC marathons since 1984 (his fastest was 2:23+ ) and he would win again the next 2 years. That was my year though. 17 years to the day after I first tired the marathon at the ATC race (then in north Atlanta - I dropped out after 1 of the 2 laps) I came back and won my last marathon.

Goto:

for the history of the ATC Marathon

This should say:

Kevin and some other local runners went to the front in the 1st mile and I ran 7:00 to warmup (it was chilly that morning).

My typing skills aren't the greatest.

Kevin Moats was, and I believe still is, quite a triathlon stud. Growing up in Hotlanta doing triathlons he was always the guy at the front, unless some out of towner showed up. Benji- when I was in high school doing the occasional road race or ATC group run, all us 'young guys' would whisper in awe "that's Benji Durden". It does everyone a great service that you are willing to post here and share your experiences, and that you continue to compete speaks volumes about you. Keep it up, it is inspiring.

Benji, I was wondering if your training method works better for faster runners as opposed to those who have less leg speed and seem to thrive on higher mileage. I recall you saying you had run 49 for the 400m and I remember reading that Kim Jones had run 55 for the 400m which is pretty fast for a female marathoner. Have you noticed this in the runners you have coached over the years or does it work as well for everyone?

Great thread.

I would love to hear Benji's thoughts on a couple of more universal topics, with apologies if these have been answered previously.

Benji, when you and Billy and company were at your peak, USA was at or near the top of the Marathoning World. Things changed, and there are many reasons for that I suppose.

Many point to African genetic gifts. All they had to do was "wake up" in the opinion of many. I disagree with that notion, and believe that it comes down to lifestyle, training, and belief in what you can do. I believe that USA CAN have SEVERAL runners at 2:06 and below, in the future, if as a country, this is what they really want. Lifestyle is the Big One, and that won't be changed overnight. Belief precedes the lifestyle change, perhaps, and it's hard to convince "white people" that they can do the things that Ethiopians and Kenyans can.

Also, I'm not so sure that we have embraced "modern training methods for the Marathon" like some other countries. I believe the 2:04-2:06 runners of today train differently than the 2:08-2:10 runners of your day.

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Skuj

Dan Moriarity wrote:

Benji, I was wondering if your training method works better for faster runners as opposed to those who have less leg speed and seem to thrive on higher mileage. I recall you saying you had run 49 for the 400m and I remember reading that Kim Jones had run 55 for the 400m which is pretty fast for a female marathoner. Have you noticed this in the runners you have coached over the years or does it work as well for everyone?

I think l that my approach works for pretty much any kind of runner, but I don't think that there is only one path to success. The only problem I see with high mileage (and I ran some pretty high mileage myself as an experiment -140-150 for a bit) is that done improperly, it can be a path to injury. I can't tell you the "proper" way to run big miles since that isn't an area I know a lot about.

Skuj wrote:

Many point to African genetic gifts. All they had to do was "wake up" in the opinion of many. I disagree with that notion, and believe that it comes down to lifestyle, training, and belief in what you can do. I believe that USA CAN have SEVERAL runners at 2:06 and below, in the future, if as a country, this is what they really want. Lifestyle is the Big One, and that won't be changed overnight. Belief precedes the lifestyle change, perhaps, and it's hard to convince "white people" that they can do the things that Ethiopians and Kenyans can.

Also, I'm not so sure that we have embraced "modern training methods for the Marathon" like some other countries. I believe the 2:04-2:06 runners of today train differently than the 2:08-2:10 runners of your day.

I think one of the big difference today is that in my time, if you were a distance runner (i.e. not miler and down), you trained for and ran the marathon. Other distances were just "training races" to prepare for the marathon. Today it seems most distance runners are 5000 track runners first and move up in distance only when they are forced to be the reality that they aren't competitive enough. The best runners don't run marathons until they are older (perhaps too old to really reach their potential in the marathon).

Life style differences do exist, but there really is not much chance that can be changed.

My final thought is going to be controversial. I don't think that "modern" training methods are that different form 20 years ago. I haven't embraced 2:04-2:05 marathons as being possible without EPO and/or steroids with any training method (or 26:30 10K's either for that matter). I believe that we can have several 2:07-2:09 marathoners if the marathon becomes a higher priority, but it is hard for me to believe that we will ever see much faster times clean.

Benji:

Thanks for sharing your insights and thoughts on training. After reading your post, I realize that the way I train marathoners is a bit similar to the way you (personally)trained, except I include some faster running in long runs while you were going at a modest pace. The question I have is this: How much to you think you were slowed by wearing one or two sweat suits? Tinman

I'm not sure this is the right question. The sweats result in an elevated heart rate and other increases in the stress of the workout, but I run the same pace without them. There pace is just what I feel comfortable at for a long run.

Another way to think about this is to add in that I did my long runs on Thursdays and the raced a "training" race on Saturday (in the south Saturday races are the norm). If I ran too fast on Thursday, I would struggle on Saturday. I wouldn't be fresh on Saturday after a 2:45 run, but I wanted to not be sore. I don't think I needed to run faster during my long run since it was just needed to work on metabolism (helping me shift to more fat burning for the most part).

My Saturday race probably served the function you are try achieve by having runners do part of their run faster during the long run.

I have a reluctance to having people do sustained marathon pace work in long runs because I did this early in my racing life and it didn't work for me. I actually ran faster workouts than I raced which is not the goal. I know there are believers in this approach, but I got burned with it. When I found that slower long runs worked better, I stuck with them. I still got tired at the end of 2:20-2:45 even at 6:40 pace and I raced well of of this approach (and still do relatively speaking though now I'm more like 8:40-9:00 pace). It has worked well for others I have worked with so I'm reluctant to drop my bias.

I have to disagree with Mr.Durden here.

First, Alberto Salazar and Frank Shorter, two of in not the best american Marathoners of all-time were "track guys".

Second, when you compare Paul Tergats ectomorph body with yours(in your prime) + he had the advantage of growing up at altitude i wonder that his PB is only 5 minutes faster than yours.

Meb has run 27:13 for 10k, with your metabolism that would bring him down to 2:05 for the Marathon in an ideal race, so do you say Meb must be a drug cheat?

Benji wrote: I haven't embraced 2:04-2:05 marathons as being possible without EPO and/or steroids with any training method (or 26:30 10K's either for that matter).

I have immense respect for Benji, his running, and his time here. But I must be frank, and say that the above statement is PART of the issue with North Americans being so far behind, imho. If we believe that 2:05 is for druggies, we refuse to believe that we can progress there with lifestyle and training. We ourselves place barriers to 2:05.

It really comes down to whether or not the 2:05s can happen without drugs or not. If they can, I think you're right.

I will say that the people I talk to who have been at the highest levels of competition, as Benji has though I've never talked with him, are much more likely to think that we're long past the time when WRs and really fast times were the result of nothing but training, dedication and maybe a few vitamins.

Watch out!Cause i produce bad rhymes like Haile lactic acid.Hold on!Cause my skills are not the one you can mess with.I have to drop a line or two cause what i read here can't be true, an oldie, i call him a goldie, thinks that his limits must be the same for everyone, thats as wise as the song by the stones about a sweet neo-con, some of the top-guys are build like freakin animals, they are hungry, and enter the scene like freaking cannibals, like my rhymes they are poetry but in motion, just watching them running feels as good as using skin lotion, don't think that all are druggies, with drugs they could even beat some guys on dune-buggys, so don't blame your failures on other people, this kind of compensation is senseless no matter if you are stoney or a beatle.

Peace out too all accuses but no legs men in da house

Superrappin till infinity

letsrunizzle manizzle

Wello wrote:

Meb has run 27:13 for 10k, with your metabolism that would bring him down to 2:05 for the Marathon in an ideal race, so do you say Meb must be a drug cheat?

I wouldn't accuse Meb of being a drug cheat, but I don't see him with a 2:05 yet. Marathon times are not easily predicted from 10K's so I can't guess his potential. He may be that good, but Arturo Barrios never ran under 2:08 with his 27:08 speed and half marathon hour run.

Maybe Tergat and Italian based kenyans and Dutch based Ethiopians aren't up to something. It is still hard for me to accept that they never seem to get tired except when the drug testing is supposed to be very good (though I admit this doesn't explain the track times in the WC and Olympics for Bekele et al).

As for Shorter, yes he was a track runner, but his strength was the marathon and his income came in large part from road racing. Salazar was the beginning of the current phase in distance running though his roots in Boston had a heavy marathon influence. Though he was a track runner, he and Shorter were both known as marathoners.

My point wasn't that American runners have to leave the track to see better marathoners; it was the marathon now gets track stars after they have exhausted their track careers, if then. Even the 10,000 seems to mostly get the guys who can't run under 13:40 for 5K anymore (with a few exceptions of course). We need guys that can run 13:10 in the 10,000 and Meb should have more sub-27:40 guys with him in the marathon. Then we can compete (especially if the testers are obvious at the races).

I apologize if this has already been addressed on this thread and for the fact that it appears to turn into quite a hot topic on the boards when discussed, nevertheless, Benji I have seen you post that you like running in the Nike Free's and possibly other flats (correct me if I am wrong). I was wondering if you would mind sharing some of your thoughts about shoes and their relationship for ones training.

I am experimenting with trying less shoe and I am not sure if it is the right way to go, but I can understand the reasoning for running in a more minmalistic shoe (and with protection) and thought your insight may be valuable because you did many miles in what we call "flats and retro" trainers today.

Very interesting stuff on this thread. My goal is to improve and set PR's, there is alot of info presented by all on this thread that lends validity to many ideas I have.

Thanks.

Benji, welcome to letsrun.com, the only place on the face of the earth where you'll be called out for a two second marathon mistake!

NYRRC wrote:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=626819&thread=626819

Benji you were 5th in 2:13:49 in 1979.

What?

BMG wrote:

Benji, welcome to letsrun.com, the only place on the face of the earth where you'll be called out for a two second marathon mistake!

The latchkey generation, why are you so thin-skinned? A poster points out Benji's correct time and you call it being"called out." Take a chill pill.