Could Symmonds beat Centro in a sit-and-kick?

dial it up wrote:

Good reasoning but Lagat and El G both ran pretty decent 800's. Either way you are right about your point.

When did they? I've only ever seen a 1:46 from Lagat and Tilastopaja says he ran it several times

Yes. If both are able to kick hard off whatever the pace was, Symmonds wins by large margin. But an "easy" 1500 pace for centro is faster than it is for Symmonds. If the pace is such that it is easy for centro but tough for Symmonds, that is a different story.

I've got Ngeny, Morceli, Cram, Aouita, Souleiman, Kiprop, Coe, Ovett and Makhloufi - all confirmed last-lap artists and sub 1:45'ers. You've got Lagat and El G who maybe couldn't hit 1:44 but never really tried. I win.

Almost every fast miler and great kicker ran sub 1:45. There's no circular logic about it, it's just a fact.

Bad Wigins wrote:

As for the "point of this thread," i.e. your point not the OP's, precious few milers ran sub-47 besides Coe and Kiprop. What a coincidence that both were known as the most devastating kickers of their eras, if top end speed isn't so important.

When did Kiprop run sub 47? I remember a youtube video of him running 48.xx on a dirt track in kenya once. Never sub 47 though.

Bad Wigins wrote:

HardLoper wrote:

That is just circular logic. You're just assuming the guys with good 800 PBs are good kickers, and the other good kickers should have good 800 PBs. Bernard Lagat and El Guerrouj are both good at kicking but I don't see proof either would be good at 800. Nick Willis said somewhere he couldn't even break 50 in a 400 from blocks.

I've got Ngeny, Morceli, Cram, Aouita, Souleiman, Kiprop, Coe, Ovett and Makhloufi - all confirmed last-lap artists and sub 1:45'ers. You've got Lagat and El G who maybe couldn't hit 1:44 but never really tried. I win.

Almost every fast miler and great kicker ran sub 1:45. There's no circular logic about it, it's just a fact.

Yes it is circular logic. 1500m atlete = good kicker = good 800m runner therefore good 800m = 1500m good kicker. That conclusion is not true.

madmandoc wrote:

Yes. If both are able to kick hard off whatever the pace was, Symmonds wins by large margin. But an "easy" 1500 pace for centro is faster than it is for Symmonds. If the pace is such that it is easy for centro but tough for Symmonds, that is a different story.

English translation?

Positive Contribution wrote:

Malmo is spot on about pure 800 guys running a 1500 aren't a threat even off a slow pace.

Those guys train to run hard from the gun and the be the one who slows down least the final 200 meters. Just because you have 45 second 400 speed doesn't mean you can "flip the switch" after already running 1200 meters.

That may all be true for "pure 800 guys". But symmonds is most certainly not a "pure 800 guy." He ran plenty of 1500/miles in college, and with a small tweak to his training, ran 3:34. So.....again, what you say might be true about "pure 800 guys", but this is irrelevant to Symmonds. He is a strength 800 guy, who has a great 1500 pr, and has plenty of mile/1500 experience.

madmandoc wrote:

Yes. If both are able to kick hard off whatever the pace was, Symmonds wins by large margin. But an "easy" 1500 pace for centro is faster than it is for Symmonds. If the pace is such that it is easy for centro but tough for Symmonds, that is a different story.

rosetta stone wrote:

English translation?

He is saying that a runner trained for the 1500 will have more of a kick left at the end of a 1500 race, than the 800 runner who will be relatively way more tired (spent, drained, piano on his back, etc.) Here is an example of Symmonds in that situation:

I think Lagat ran 1:45 at some point, but even if it is 1:46 that is fast for a non 800 guy. Especially a guy who is just as good at 5k as the 1500. You gotta think he was no slower than 1:44 shape when he ran 3:26

dial it up wrote:

I can PROMISE I have spent more time around elite athletes, so naive might be a bit of a reach. I can also promise that athletes are familiar with who said what.

Ah, I see that you have resorted to the favorite tactic of cowards - deleting posts of those who call attention to your ignorance. Well done my good lad, well done!

Where to even begin? Perhaps it should be pointed out that you really should spend a bit more time with those who understand the English language. Your, "I can PROMISE I have spent more time around elite athletes" doesn't even make any sense. More than whom?

So, we proceed to fill in the blank for you. Perhaps you meant, "I can PROMISE I have spent more time around elite athletes than you have". Of course, if that is indeed what you meant to convey with your nonsensical sequence of words then one is forced to conclude that you are expressing pure and unadulterated ignorance. Since you don't have any idea who I am you cannot have any idea if your silly little statement is true.

Ah, but it gets even better. "I can also promise that athletes are familiar with who said what." Really? You figured that out all by yourself, Sherlock? And how exactly is that relevant to your original claim or my calling out of that claim.

Now, in the future, try to work on that IQ of yours. With luck (a GREAT deal of luck) you may be able to form meaningful sentences that are not based upon ignorance. You may even be able to choose ones which are relevant to the topic at hand.

Good luck!

dial it up wrote:

I think Lagat ran 1:45 at some point, but even if it is 1:46 that is fast for a non 800 guy. Especially a guy who is just as good at 5k as the 1500. You gotta think he was no slower than 1:44 shape when he ran 3:26

Back in the early 80s, I watched Thom Hunt run 1:47 in an all-comers meet and he made it look like a stroll in the park (Thom always made it look easy.) But I doubt he could have run the 800 much faster than that. He was incredibly well conditioned. I used to bounce training ideas off Thom's father Jim. One day Jim told me Thom did nothing but LSD (Long Slow Distance,) which if true is very interesting considering how strong Thom was in the middle distances (indoor 2000m WR while at University of Arizona.) He had to have done some type of sharpening work. But he just didn't have the speed nor the speed endurance to run sub 1:45.

chasing your tail wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Sure, not everyone who runs a fast 400 will run a fast mile. But almost everyone who runs a fast mile will run at least a fast 800 if not a fast 400.

Yes it is circular logic. 1500m atlete = good kicker = good 800m runner therefore good 800m = 1500m good kicker. That conclusion is not true.

So what? It's not my conclusion, shadow-boxer. I said almost all good 1500 kickers run a good 800. Any implication of the converse was a product of your own runaway imagination.

I did validly state the contrapositive that if Centro doesn't run a good 800, he's not likely to outkick Kiprop and co.

dial it up wrote:

I think Lagat ran 1:45 at some point, but even if it is 1:46 that is fast for a non 800 guy. Especially a guy who is just as good at 5k as the 1500.

It would be pedestrian for a sub-3:30er, 5000 or not. Look at Choge and Aouita.

What the top MD runners have that others don't is blazing rip snorting speed.

That was cute, hope you had fun with it. Now go train more and maybe you'll get a 1 in front of your 5k time some day.

chasing your tail wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

I've got Ngeny, Morceli, Cram, Aouita, Souleiman, Kiprop, Coe, Ovett and Makhloufi - all confirmed last-lap artists and sub 1:45'ers. You've got Lagat and El G who maybe couldn't hit 1:44 but never really tried. I win.

Almost every fast miler and great kicker ran sub 1:45. There's no circular logic about it, it's just a fact.

Yes it is circular logic. 1500m atlete = good kicker = good 800m runner therefore good 800m = 1500m good kicker. That conclusion is not true.

Ouch you want some Aloe Vera for those burns Mr. Wiggins?

Ah, the brainless coward reappears.

So, you judge your value as a human being on your 5k time I see. Well, I guess there are more shallow ways that some folks go through life. Can't think of any off the top of my head but they are probably out there.

I've got Ngeny, Morceli, Cram, Aouita, Souleiman, Kiprop, Coe, Ovett and Makhloufi - all confirmed last-lap artists and sub 1:45'ers. You've got Lagat and El G who maybe couldn't hit 1:44 but never really tried. I win.

Almost every fast miler and great kicker ran sub 1:45. There's no circular logic about it, it's just a fact.

Aside from Lagat and El G, here are a few others that come to mind:

Nick Willis - 1:45.54, 3:29.91 (1500m)

Andres Manuel Diaz - 1:45.84, 3:48.38 (mile)

Venuste Niyongabo - 1:47.28, 3:46.70 (mile)

David Moorcroft - 1:46.64, 3:49.34 (mile)

Haron Keitany - 1:49.86, 3:48.78 (mile)

Craig Mottram - 3:49.34 (mile), only listed 800m is 1:52.90, although I am sure he could go faster but nowhere near 1:45 in an open 800m

I am sure there are others. So, no, you do not necessarily have to be a sub-1:45 800m guy to be a fast miler with a great kick at the end of races. You just need to be a fast miler with a great kick.

Ah, the brainless coward reappears.

So, you judge your value as a human being on your 5k time I see. Well, I guess there are more shallow ways that some folks go through life. Can't think of any off the top of my head but they are probably out there.[/quote]

Nah, I use money, accomplishments, athletic ability, and my 5k time. Only losers like you think all people are made equal.

dial it up wrote:

Ah, the brainless coward reappears.

So, you judge your value as a human being on your 5k time I see. Well, I guess there are more shallow ways that some folks go through life. Can't think of any off the top of my head but they are probably out there.

Nah, I use money, accomplishments, athletic ability, and my 5k time. Only losers like you think all people are made equal.[/quote]

And thus you demonstrate yet again your complete lack of cranial capacity and integrity. If you had a brain you would understand that making assumptions about what other people think and then arguing against your own words is the mark of a brainless coward. (if you only had a brain...)