Dumb Arizona female runner calls out Olympic runner for running with headphones

If you're dumb enough to not pay attention to traffic while you listen to music, than you probably shouldn't wear headphones. If you're blind then you might not want to wear headphones. I wear headphones 100% of the time when I run alone and I've never had an issue.

then*

Clam Evans wrote:

I wear headphones 100% of the time when I run alone and I've never had an issue.

Thank you for confirming my earlier post.

I posted this on the original article. Let's see if we get an answer:

Hey so we need an answer here: did this woman actually say something to you, or did you infer from her look that she was judging you not to be a real runner? The debate is tearing up Letsrun right now!

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5306702

Sorry, troll.

Let's do some real science. Here is what we're gonna start with.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pubs/810968.pdf

Here, we find that in a 9 year period, the total number of pedestrian fatalities due to vehicles was 49,128. Your one study examined a 7 year period, and found 116 accidents, 70 percent of which resulted in death, and 45 percent of which involved vehicles.

So, we'll take a 7/9 of the original sample. And take .7 times .45 of your sample.

Total fatalities: 38,211

Total fatalities from wearing headphones: 37

So, headphones accounted for .097 percent of all pedestrian fatalities. NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. You're an idiot, get outta here. Game, set, match.

GenericID wrote:

LM wrote:

No, but a significant number of people listen to music on the Radio/CD/IPod/etc. while driving, so the effective answer is "yes, it is not uncommon at all".

During the course of this thread I've posted links to several sources, both primary research and newspaper articles, which demonstrate that, not only do headphones caused lowered attention in pedestrians, but that headphones are NOT the same as listening to music over a speaker system.

Interestingly, despite providing this solid evidence, every single response has been the poster's own, unsupported, opinion. If you can find one study showing that driving while listening to the radio provides the same level of distraction as driving with headphones that would be great.

I wouldn't necessarily contenst this, but I didn't see any evidence in the study you posted as it didn't examine any speaker systems. It looked at headphone, cellphone, food, drink, cigaratte and conversation.

Unfortunately in that one, only the abstract is available without coughing up monies.

"Caution was measured by looking left and right, and entering the crosswalk only when the white proceed light was illuminated."

This to me is interesting. Obviously looking at the whole population it isn't surprising to me at all that someone finds a correlation between headphones and being distracted...but at the same time I don't think there is anything stopping conscientious individuals from always making sure to not be distracted.

Though, to be honest, I think the real lesson here is to be smart about how you use your headphones. In other words, music should be off when you are in areas where you are interacting with cars and turned back on when you are on your trail/path/isolated sidewalk.

fdzsx wrote:

Clam Evans wrote:

I wear headphones 100% of the time when I run alone and I've never had an issue.

Thank you for confirming my earlier post.

I don't care about the evidence of other people. Other people aren't me. I won't get hit by a car because I am responsoible for myself. Statistics don't matter to the individual case. 99.99% of people can't fly jets, but to .01% of people it is perfectly safe.

responsible*

Lemoncello has always been known for being a bit of an a-hole. He alienated himself at FSU with his superiority complex and it seems he's brought it on out to Arizona. Never been a big fan of the guy from my interactions with him.

Its no more dangerous than listening to the radio while you drive a vehicle.

dartmoth graduate wrote:

Running through the city with headphones? Dumb idea.

If you can't hear a car coming behind you because of your headphones, you may be killed by it. Pretty simple. Loud headphones make you less aware of your surroundings. There's a reason that there are special signs in areas with deaf people living there. Not being able to hear is dangerous.

Sorry, dude. This is LetsRun. We only understand BroScience here.

GenericID wrote:

LM wrote:

No, but a significant number of people listen to music on the Radio/CD/IPod/etc. while driving, so the effective answer is "yes, it is not uncommon at all".

During the course of this thread I've posted links to several sources, both primary research and newspaper articles, which demonstrate that, not only do headphones caused lowered attention in pedestrians, but that headphones are NOT the same as listening to music over a speaker system.

Interestingly, despite providing this solid evidence, every single response has been the poster's own, unsupported, opinion. If you can find one study showing that driving while listening to the radio provides the same level of distraction as driving with headphones that would be great.

Clam Evans wrote:

fdzsx wrote:

Thank you for confirming my earlier post.

I don't care about the evidence of other people. Other people aren't me. I won't get hit by a car because I am responsoible for myself. Statistics don't matter to the individual case. 99.99% of people can't fly jets, but to .01% of people it is perfectly safe.

People that insist running with headphones is dumb because it is unsafe are the same people that stand on the street corner waiting for the 'walk' light even though there are no cars in sight.

Who are you to say that when I go out running on the streets with traffic, in all black at dusk, that I can't have my headphones in my ears to drown out my daughters complaining while she sits in the jogging stroller?

It's ridiculous, runners are the most judgmental group of people I have ever met!

As Bon Jovi would say, "It's my lifeeeeee"

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

If you can't hear a car coming behind you because of your headphones, you may be killed by it.

If a car comes up from behind and kills you, either you or the driver of the car have to be doing something a lot more wrong than wearing headphones. That's just stupid.

The Geomathematician wrote:

Sorry, troll.

Let's do some real science. Here is what we're gonna start with.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pubs/810968.pdf

Here, we find that in a 9 year period, the total number of pedestrian fatalities due to vehicles was 49,128. Your one study examined a 7 year period, and found 116 accidents, 70 percent of which resulted in death, and 45 percent of which involved vehicles.

So, we'll take a 7/9 of the original sample. And take .7 times .45 of your sample.

Total fatalities: 38,211

Total fatalities from wearing headphones: 37

So, headphones accounted for .097 percent of all pedestrian fatalities. NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. You're an idiot, get outta here. Game, set, match.

You're the idiot here. How many of those 37 fatalities from wearing headphone would have not be fatal, or even injurious, had the pedestrian NOT been wearing headphones?

The Geomathematician wrote:

Sorry, troll.

Let's do some real science. Here is what we're gonna start with.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pubs/810968.pdf

Here, we find that in a 9 year period, the total number of pedestrian fatalities due to vehicles was 49,128. Your one study examined a 7 year period, and found 116 accidents, 70 percent of which resulted in death, and 45 percent of which involved vehicles.

So, we'll take a 7/9 of the original sample. And take .7 times .45 of your sample.

Total fatalities: 38,211

Total fatalities from wearing headphones: 37

So, headphones accounted for .097 percent of all pedestrian fatalities. NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. You're an idiot, get outta here. Game, set, match.

So your idea of "real science" is making stuff up?

Please point to the part of the study where it says that the 116 accidents were the only ones they found to have involved pedestrians wearing headphones?

The paragraphs state: "Dr. Lichenstein and his colleagues studied retrospective case reports from the National Electronic Injury Surveillance System, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, Google News Archives, and Westlaw Campus Research databases for reports published between 2004 and 2011 of pedestrian injuries or fatalities from crashes involving trains or motor vehicles. Cases involving headphone use were extracted and summarized. The research was recently published online in the journal Injury Prevention.

Researchers reviewed 116 accident cases from 2004 to 2011 in which injured pedestrians were documented to be using headphones." - not a single thing suggests that the 116 accidents examined are the total number of accidents in the US involving pedestrians wearing headphones during the time period, only that those accidents extracted were ones that fit the study's parameters.

The study YOU found lists nearly 12,900 accidents where the behaviour of the pedestrians was unreported (so we don't know if they were wearing headphones or not).

The other thing not covered in my study is accidents caused by pedestrians wearing headphones in which the pedestrian was not injured (but others might have been).

Even given all the cases which had to be excluded for lack of information, or for falling outside the study parameters, they still found a SIX-FOLD increase in the number of traffic accidents involving pedestrians wearing headphones; do you still want to maintain that there is no causal link?

Come back when you want to do some REAL science (you know, the stuff involving facts, not your imagination.) BTW, calling me a troll is a sure sign that you haven't a real argument to make (something that became patently obvious when you started with your fake "mathematical" calculations).

Unreported behaviour of pedestrians and whether or not they were wearing headphones? Speculation

Accidents caused by pedestrians wearing headphones where they were not injured? Speculation

On the known facts, his numbers stack up. Less than 0.1%, statistically insignificant, even accounting for the three fold increase. If anything, that ties in with the number of people I see walking around in headphones these days compared to 2004. Not to mention the report's findings that alcohol and driver error were key factors in a large number of accidents. Correlation does not imply causation

Unreported behaviour of pedestrians and whether or not they were wearing headphones? Speculation

Not speculation at all, the figure comes from the study provided by Geomathematician, not me.

Accidents caused by pedestrians wearing headphones where they were not injured? Speculation

Again, not speculation at all. In case you missed the study's parameters, here they are again: "databases for reports published between 2004 and 2011 of pedestrian injuries or fatalities from crashes involving trains or motor vehicles." (emphasis mine).

Clearly the study didn't include crashes in which the driver avoided injuring the pedestrian, but may have injured either themselves or someone else.

Less than 0.1%, statistically insignificant

Not to the families of the dead people, or the people in wheelchairs. Statistics aren't the whole story, especially in avoidable deaths/injuries.

But, since you have to make an illegitimate assumption to depress the number of headphone accidents in order to reach the statistical level of insignificance, your statistical summary is irrelevant anyway.

Unless YOU can absolutely guarantee that there were exactly 116 accidents involving headphone-wearing pedestrians - no more and no less - then your maths is based on an illegitimate assumption.

The referenced study doesn't make the claim that those 116 accidents are a comprehensive list for that 7 year period - that's your claim and you need to back it up.