1200 Hypothetical: Ngeny vs El Guerrouj vs Coe

longjack wrote:

1000m record holder it is pointed out statistics wise is a miler.

the exception is rudolf harbig who had world records 46.0 1:46.6 and 2:21. 400-800-1k, plus 10.6 and 21.5 100m and 200m. i speculate harbig was really good for 1:45 flat and kind of hung on for that 1000m record?

Aha. The other "exceptions" are Marcel Hansenne, Rick Wohlhuter, Peter Snell, Dan Waern, Sebastian Coe, Franz-Josef Kemper, Danie Malan, Mal Whitfield, Audun Boysen and some more which I can`t remember at the moment, I`m sure.

And to Said88, there's a difference between former world record holders and current world record holders. The difference being that the current world record holders are the best and do things in a better way than the former world record holders did.

The former WR holders have been the best in there time. Stating the fact that Noah Ngeny primarily was a Miler, and not taking into account that almost all other 1000m WR holders in history have been primarily 800m runners and still standing to the conclusion that "Milers" have the best chance in breaking the 1000m WR is - at least I would call it curious.

no

try again

no one has said "milers have the best chance of breaking the 1k wr"

all that is being stated that a miler holds the 1k wr

use your brain & examine this specific, most relevant case

ventolin^3 wrote:

jennifer cruz wrote:So, I guess you'd have to give David Rudisha, at minimum, a 1:40.7, just to be consistent

he's probably worth that

in his 2 wrs, both times tangui is about 5m ahead most of the time offering no drafting advantage ( it's probably rudy's fault for being lazy & not chasing after him hard enough &/or tangui doing poor job & not throttling back ) - worth maybe 1s/lap or 0.5s for drafting from 200 - 400 :

he essentially ran a solo race :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_of87fPA6fg

contrast that to coe's last wr where he got textbook drafting from billy to the bell & virtually full drafting advantage :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0e1yaMIM08

Lol @ ventolin thinking most of the advantage of rabbits comes from wind resistance reduction. It's mostly psychological. Has ventolin ever actually run?

eh ?http://www.hillrunner.com/jim2/id39.html

His calculations suggest that at world-record mile pace, a runner running 2 m behind the lead runner would save about 1.66 seconds per lap, which generally confirms Pugh's estimations

long dong silver wrote:

Lol @ ventolin thinking most of the advantage of rabbits comes from wind resistance reduction. It's mostly psychological. Has ventolin ever actually run?

I think you just got owned

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let me qualify what miler means in this context.

this thought emphasizes the fact that 1k record is held by the 800-1600 type rather than the 400-800 type.

best distance is the mile and you had or nearly had the world record. most of these type of milers can go near the world record in 3000m too.

with coe he could run 21x,45x,141,327(probably).

200/400/800/1500. so let us call him an 800/1500 guy and not a 400/800 guy ok? and let us call coe a miler too.

drafting: new zealanders who won gold medals think it works.

in practice drafting is worth about 1 second per lap.

some guys try to draft running at the other guys shoulder, dumb.

best drafting depends on the configuration of the runners and size in front of you.

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/photography/special/fia_cdg_wing/othe241004airflow.jpg

you want to be in a low pressure zone for your torso, but your head in an area with higher pressure. it would be interesting to do some wind tunnel experiments to see what combinations really do what.

on a windy day, drafting is MORE important. the other guy blocks the wind on one straight and you block the wind on the second straight, (there being the two of you)

new zealanders strategy (miler) from lovelock to willis is ALWAYS the same, draft and sprint somewhere in the final 300m.

list em, lovelock, snell, dixon, quax, walker, willis.

Sorry, but you can`t seriously call the named athletes a "Miler" (maybe with the exception of Sebastian Coe, but not in this context, since still his main event was the 800m.

The plain fact is that the big majority of the persons who hag held the 1k WR are mainly 800m runners,, and not "Milers".

3 laps to heaven wrote:

2 other candidates for inclusion in this race is Ryun 2:46 last 1200 in a 1500m race and Peter Elliott 2:45 in a time trial prior to 1990 Commonwealth Games.

Elliott's run was a one off 1200m. Doing it in a 1500 or mile is something else.

Ryun didn't run 2:46 in a 1500. He ran the last "three-fourths mile in ...2:48.7" (The Milers, Roberto Quercetani)

That's 2:47.7 for 1200m. Still great, but not 2:46.

Ryun's run was on a 440yd track and most of the split times quoted over the years have been in yards,....210, 320, 440, etc. I doubt any reliable metric splits would have been taken except at the 1500m end line, which would have been the 320yds, 760 yds, etc.

longjack wrote:

let me qualify what miler means in this context.

this thought emphasizes the fact that 1k record is held by the 800-1600 type rather than the 400-800 type.

This is what I mean by you morons stating the obvious. Considering that 1000 meters falls between 800 and 1600, you'd have to be the village idiot to not recognize that somebody who is very good at both 800 and 1600 is likely to be better at 1000 than somebody who is very good at 400 and 800. This determines nothing in relation to this thread's topic.

mid distance wrote:Ryun didn't run 2:46 in a 1500. He ran the last "three-fourths mile in ...2:48.7" (The Milers, Roberto Quercetani)

That's 2:47.7 for 1200m. Still great, but not 2:46

no

cordner says in t&f that it was "2'46.6"

also reported in that was that ryun's 440y time ( it was 1/4M track so that has to be accurate time ) was

60.9

now, the brief vid shows that ryun went from start to 220y line in

14.3s

that is covering a distance of 91.82m in 14.3 or = pace for 440y of

62.7s !

this is pace to reach 300m in

46.7

& he was

~ 4+m

behind bailey at 91.82m

2'48.7 for last 3/4M in 3'33.1 for initial 300m ->

"1500m - 3/4 M" =

292.992m point in 3'33.1 - 2'48.7 ( according to q ) = 44.4s

proportion this upto 300m at even pace =

45.46 at 300m according to q

the article continues that they "dawdled thru 220y"

now, rest of vid shows ryun at least 8m ! behind bailey at ~ 350m in, before he chases after an accelerating keino to still be 3rd at 440y in 60.9

so it is likely he got even slower from 91.82m to 350m as gap grew from 4m to 8m

it is highly, highly improbable that reaching 91.82m mark at 62+ pace, being 4m behind bailey & then being 8m behind him at 350m, before accelerating to 440y, which he reached in 60.9 is consistent with a 45.46s for 300m

theoretical 300m was in region of

~ 46.7

( & likely slower as gap went from 4m at 91.82m to 8m at 350m )

this is much slower than q's subtraction value of

45.5

they had no casios in those days to make these calculations instant, so it looks like :

q's 2'48.7 is likely value of

RYUN'S FINISHING TIME MINUS BAILEY'S TIME AT 300M

Ventolin, just curious what Kaki predicts for 1200 in your calculator.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Ventolin, just curious what Kaki predicts for 1200 in your calculator.

It's pretty obvious that ventolin will give Kaki about 2:41.6, with the only real variables being how much he wants to slash Kaki's best recorded times.

SlowFatMaster wrote:just curious what Kaki predicts for 1200

predicting 1500 times for "pure" 800 guys is usually a waste of time

there are a bucket of guys:

1'42.00 - 1'42.99

you'd have to give them from experience/stats/empiricism:

46.00 - 46.99

->

potential of :

46.00 / 1'42.99 ->2'44.2 , 3'31.8

46.00 / 1'42.00 ->2'41.8 , 3'28.3

46.99 / 1'42.99 ->2'42.4 , 3'28.5

46.99 / 1'42.00 ->2'40.1 , 3'24.9 !!!

i'd reckon kaki last year had close to

~ low-3'28 theoretical potential

which isn't saying much, as any 1'42 guy woud reckon 3'28 is possible !?

Thanks, Ventolin.

Kaki ran a 3:31.78 this year. I look forward to the rest of his season.

Idk if anyone said this yet (too lazy to read through 6 pages) but I believe the 2004 Athens Olympic 1500 final closed in 1:44 high with El G and Lagat. I think if he went all out, he could go for around low 1:43, and no more because the first two laps were like low 60's

Trolldad wrote:

I believe the 2004 Athens Olympic 1500 final closed in 1:44 high with El G and Lagat. I think if he went all out, he could go for around low 1:43, and no more because the first two laps were like low 60's

No. El G closed in around 1:46,8 - but 3rd place finisher Rui Silva closed even faster while have to run wide in the curves! Definitely some sub 1:46 finish...don`t know what he is doing at 800m and at 400m to go at the back of the pack; could have won that race.

Said, Antonio has said that Silva had an abdominal injury going into the games. The only speed work that Silva could do (if you call this speed) was 5 x 500 at about 3:36 pace. So Silva may not have been feeling great for the first 800. The injury required surgery after the games.

Ventolin has disputed the seriousness of this injury in past posts.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Said, Antonio has said that Silva had an abdominal injury going into the games. The only speed work that Silva could do (if you call this speed) was 5 x 500 at about 3:36 pace. So Silva may not have been feeling great for the first 800. The injury required surgery after the games.

Ventolin has disputed the seriousness of this injury in past posts.

Thanks for this.

So he was lacking confidence? But looking on his finishing speed, it seems he was the best on that day...