There actually IS a rule that enforces that very scenario.
It's known as the "honest effort rule."
If an athlete declares but then DNS's, he/she is barred from competing in any event afterwards. This rule is applied sometimes but not all the time. When it is or isnt i have no idea why. But what i do know is that at these 2011 Champs the rule is not in effect.
Heres a flotrack interview with two of the guys, atleast they seem pretty laid back about it.
Actually.... wrote:
There actually IS a rule that enforces that very scenario.
It's known as the "honest effort rule."
If an athlete declares but then DNS's, he/she is barred from competing in any event afterwards. This rule is applied sometimes but not all the time. When it is or isnt i have no idea why. But what i do know is that at these 2011 Champs the rule is not in effect.
You have to understand that the sport of track and field doesn't have one rule book. There is a national federation for high schools and separate state federations, NCAA has it's own rule book, as does USATF. This is a USATF meet. USATF does not have an honest effort rule, NCAA does, NFHS does not (last I checked), most state high school associations do.
USATF does have an honest-effort rule, they just arbitrarily choose when to enforce it at meets.
Here's the rule book for the 2007 USATF Champs:
http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf
How long until we see the USTFCCCA take over everything? And how do we make it happen?
Seems like the USTFCCCA could easily bid for the Nat Champs and with a strong enough petition from the athletes to the USOC/IOC we could get these changes granted.
pre-Fontaine wrote:
BIson wrote:I think it is important to point out that these are not the pre-Madonna’s of our sport,
So they are more pre-Springsteens then?
Well the op is, like a virgin
title nine applies to usatf as well?
Here's the email I sent ...
Dear Mr. Chaplin,
I'm sure you will delete this email without even reading it given the dozens of emails you must be receiving concerning your horrendous handling of the Men's 800m at the US National Meet.
But please add my voice to the chorus of people calling you out for the way you've treated the athletes involved and the handling of the matter in general. It's a shame that people like you continue to be involved at high levels with the sport that so many of us love -- it seems obvious to me that we will never rise about "niche" status as long as we continue to operate so unprofessionally.
Thank you for your annual contribution to the slow, painful death of track and field in America.
Sincerely,
I'm guessing these guys all work for their travel money. Sucks if they had to pay to travel and be spectators.
Also, why wouldn't they make the heats even since they take the top 3 or 4 from each heat in the prelims? One heat of 6 seems like an unnecessary advantage to those guys. I suppose their position in the first heat is a disadvantage for time qualifying though.
There is justice to be had.
I totally agree with the inconsistencies about the DNS policy...barring injury, the choice not to compete in an event which you declared prevents another athlete from participating. Even if that athlete isn't going to win, the experience to compete at the national level would surely help strengthen USA track and field as a whole in following seasons and, let's be honest, who doesn't enjoy a great underdog story?
As far as this particular year and the issues with Mr. Chaplin, it is a gross injustice to all the athletes who were "on the bubble" to leave such a decision in the hands of one man who doesn't even have the decency (or need) to explain his decision at depth to those affected. As the entry rules state, B standards will be used to fill the field for competitiveness...I have a hard time believing a field of six or seven in a preliminary heat is more competitive than a heat of eight.
Although this may not have happened if Chaplin wasn't at the helm, USATF still needs to have clearer guidelines to assist bubble athletes so that they have a more realistic idea SOONER of whether or not they will be able to compete. The goal is to improve our sport and support the athletes, not screw them over with vague rules and biased decision making.
My two cents...
The final decision for field size is the choice of the sport committee chair at USATF. Since there is a different committee for mens and womens track, the field sizes will be different across the board.
I think the women's race demonstrated why 28 runners is too many. Shalane spent much the closing laps running in lane 3.
So?
Lapped Up wrote:
I think the women's race demonstrated why 28 runners is too many. Shalane spent much the closing laps running in lane 3.
Shalane ran the 800?
Actually.... wrote:
USATF does have an honest-effort rule, they just arbitrarily choose when to enforce it at meets.
Here's the rule book for the 2007 USATF Champs:
http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf
Good call. Have you ever seen it implemented, at any level for USATF? I have not. Thanks for the info.
Actually.... wrote:
USATF does have an honest-effort rule, they just arbitrarily choose when to enforce it at meets.
Here's the rule book for the 2007 USATF Champs:
http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf
Very interesting, I see that is from '07, is that still in the rule book in '11?
Also, there is all this bullshit about them following the rules. If that's the case, how did Abdi get into the 10k (no offense, but what the hell?).
This is from an old thread, but it's fairly applicable to this situation:
"I can't believe it's been going on for this long and still goes on. I posted this yesterday-
First let's rewind to last year. Thomas Morgan (ZAP) was on the bubble to get in. They let their designated number in, 24, but then inexplicably added some dude named Ghebrey who was 3 spots behind Thomas and Matt Gabrielson who had run 13:55 (Thomas ran 13:39). WTF?
John Chaplin, head of the selection committee, said (direct quote) "I am the head of this committee and I can do what I want." Wow. Last year's world cross was in kenya in March and a ton of athletes were backing out due to extreme weather, threat of violence and other reasons. They begged Matt to go and finally made the deal that if he went he'd get an auto entry to USAs for the 5k. Matt's excuse, a legit one, not to go was it hurting his outdoor season so they told him he'd qualify regardless. I don't even know if 13:55 is the USATF B standard, but they let him in anyway. So after a huge stink Thomas, Steven Haas and a 3rd athlete whom I can't remember (those skipped in favor of Ghebrey) got in. As far as I know their was never an explanation as to why Ghebrey got in. I am not blaming Matt for this, but come on. Why would they make that deal?
Now, on to this year. Leading up the 5k final Alberto knew that The Gooch needed to be top3 and get the A standard. No small feat. He approached John Chaplin, who btw is paid by Nike as a "consultant", "if Adam doesn't feel good in the 5k and has to drop out will he be allowed to run the 10k?" John agreed. I'm sure some money changed hands. During the tv coverage of the 5k Ed Eyestone said "Adam's coach told me if he isn't on pace to hit the A standard he will drop out to rest for the 10k." He wasn't and he did. It was no secret why he was dropping out. So then out of nowehere Adam is added to the 10k even though he is 33rd on a list that takes 24 and nobody knows why. Athletes 25-32 are pissed and looking for answers.
This thing only got resolved because a lawsuit came up. Thank you Jon Little. The coaches of athletes 25-32 were asked if they'd agree to go to court on Thursday. All did. USATF prez Bill Roe got wind and called Chaplin "this shit is not happening for the 2nd year in a row. Click." He doesn't want a hearing. Athletes 25-32 are in. Thats still BS. None of them, nor Goucher, should be in. But damnit if The Gooch gets in they all get in.
Anybody know who Greg Myer is? Sure you do. In 1988 he was at the tail end of his career and qualified for the 10k at the trials. Declaration was by phone cause Al Gore hadnt invented the internet yet. So for 2 days Myer tried to get through but the phone was busy. Eventually he hopped on a plane to the meet and tried to pay his 100 bucks in person. Chaplin "nope, you're a day too late." He wasn't let in. Instead they let the 25th guy in who coincidentally ran for Washington State, where Chaplin was the coach. Someone from USATF told Meyer that Chaplin took the phone off the hook for the last 36 hours. Meyer quit the sport.
What about the 5k this year? Why the f*** wasn't Bak let into the 5k final? Two of alberto's athletes run the prelim for fun and keep two other athletes out of the final? Are you f***ing serious? There is a rule saying they wont let someone else in if a finalist scratches. Bullf***ingshit. What if Galen Rupp was the first guy out? They'd bend that rule because "I am the selection committee, I can do what I want." Ryan Bak is Christian Smith. He had a shot to make the team. In that final anything can happen. But, he actually didn't have a shot. That sucks. After Rohantinsky scratched another athlete was denied a spot. I actually don't even know who, but two athletes were left out.
USATF needs to get rid of the old bastards running shit. They cheat like crazy.
Ever hear of Chris Estwanik? Finished 2nd at the indoor 3000m a few years back and made the world team. He had the world A standard from a meet at UW on an oversized track. He got his box of gear and it was like Christmas in March. The day before he left Gags got a call "sorry we overlooked something. Chris ran his qualifier on an oversized track and we dont allow that. Steve Slattery is already on a plane to worlds." They never showed Gags the rule. Also, it's not a World Champs rule, supposedly just a USATF rule. Btw, Alberto was Slattery's coach that year.
Estwanik ran a few outdoor races, was in the best shape of his life (PR'd at Oracle (3:37?)) and the week of USAs quit. he couldn't do it. After what happened that winter he didn't see a point.
What about Teter getting into the final? I read a quote from Teter after the race saying she wasnt going to protest because she had no grounds for a protest. However, when you know the right people you always have a shot! As soon as Teter went down Lannana went to the rescue. He went right to the clerks and didn't file a protest, but just told them what happened and got her into the final. By the time the coach of one of the other fallen athletes got over to the table to file a protest Teter was already listed among the finalists. This was moments after the race. This guy didnt even have to file, he just told them his athlete and they moved her over. Have you seen the race? There was no foul. Shit happens. Similar to 2000 in the O trials 5000 when Jonathon Riley lost his shoe and was advanced to the final. His coach? Vin Lannana.
In 2003 Joe Driscoll was 25th (it's happened to him a few times). They listed the athletes as qualified or not qualified on usatf.org. Joe had a "not qualified" listed. His coach was told "absolutely 100% he isn't in. He didnt qualify." Fair enough. James Carney was 26th. he flew out anyway. He got out there and his former college coach, 1 million year old Harry Groves, talked to some people and got him in. Groves knows everyone and apparently spoke to Chaplin and they let him in. Meanwhile Joe was in North Carolina mopping floors.
In a sport where everything is black and white this is unexceptable. In track and field you either run X or you don't. You either finish in the top 3 or you don't. How does this shit keep happening?
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2557843&page=0#ixzz1QDRdJ5HW
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The men's 5000m field was limited to 16 men this evening because that's what John Chaplin wants. Several of the entrants on the start list ran the 10,000m last night. Regardless of whether the field size is 16, 13 or 9 there will be no additions to the field. Good for Abdi getting added to the 10,000 last night, but where is the bylaw that allows an NT to pass over a B mark?
When did the majority of provisionally qualified athletes find out that they were scratched? Wednesday morning, on the web site.
The powers that be do not care about open lanes, small field size, etc. I was told this directly. This is how our national championship is run. John Chaplin enjoys a strangle hold on the shape and quality of this meet. Someone must hold him to account.
Nada wrote:
Actually.... wrote:USATF does have an honest-effort rule, they just arbitrarily choose when to enforce it at meets.
Here's the rule book for the 2007 USATF Champs:
http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdfVery interesting, I see that is from '07, is that still in the rule book in '11?
Yes -
http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2011/2011rules.pdfRule 142.3 - In Championships and programs, other than the Olympic Team Selection competition,
conducted pursuant to the Rules of Competition of USATF, any athlete
declared to compete must honestly participate in each round (trial, heat, or
final, etc.) of each track event for which the athlete is declared or the athlete will
be barred from further competition in that meet. This rule shall not apply to
events in which only a final is held, but an athlete may be barred from such an
event if previously he or she has not honestly participated in a track event
within the purview of this rule.