LV 3:59.72!!!!!!

Odelltrclan is 100% correct. It's just foolish to compare times alone: who is really going to pretend that a 4-minute mile means "the same thing" in 1954 and 2004? It doesn't mean remotely the same thing. It's all about how good one is vs. the competition of the day, and by that standard Ryun is still FAR better than any other HS middle distance guy, from Webb on down.

That should take nothing away from what LV did yesterday. It was a great, gutsy, impressive performance in really lousy conditions. He "should" have been at least 2 seconds faster in good conditions. It's only the 2nd all-HS sub-4 in history, which is not a trivial thing at all.

A great run.

I was 5 feet from finish line on the track. Honestly as nasty as the weather was on the track and through the half I didn't think we was breaking 4:00... awesome race and great kid.

Looks like there will be no agreement on whom is best, but in terms of relative performance (a comparison to those in one's own era), Ryun is EASILY the best. Not even close. He was within 1sec of the 880 WR and 2sec of the 1mile WR. None of these others guys can compare on those terms.

As for age and performance, I believe it will be many years before we see another 18yr old come along and run the 3:55.02i, 7:47.9i and 13:25.4 that Fernandez ran. Hard to imagine a US kid running that fast at 18 years old.

Webb was the most versatile: state champion in the 400m, national medalist in cross country.

So not sure if this has already been mentioned, but did that rabbit do a terrible job or was he told to run an incredibly uneven 57-64 for the first 2 laps and then cut off half the field when he drops out?

Watch the video, like seriously pacing 101, you step to the inside when you drop out:

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/238873-adidas-Golden-Stripes-2011-Dream-100-Jim-Ryun-Dream-Mile/video/495885-adidas-Dream-Mile-Race-Video-Lukas-Verzbicas-35971

With the uneven pacing and terrible conditiosn, LV can definitely go faster in a better set up at night. Also, pretty funny the anouncer said at 800 that any chance of a sub-4 "was out the window".

Jim Ryun set FIVE world records, and he beat the Olympic Champion and World Record holder at the age of 19.

When Webb or Lukas run 3:25, you can talk.

When Lukas run 3:53--not 3:59--in the Pre Classic, you can talk.

Also, read the IAAF report on the New York Diamond League Meet. See what they say about Lukas. They don't--it isn't even mentioned.

coach d wrote:

Also, read the IAAF report on the New York Diamond League Meet. See what they say about Lukas. They don't--it isn't even mentioned.

That's why you gotta read the LetsRun RUNDOWN

Ryunwasbest wrote:

Webb was the most versatile: state champion in the 400m, national medalist in cross country.

Lol, "national medalist in cross country."

long dong silver wrote:

The Waterboy wrote:

Verzbicas is now hands down the greatest high school runner

Double champ at footlocker

First to ever do the nike-footlocker double

NR in 2 mile, 3000m, and indoor 5000m.

5th high schooler to break 4

First to ever do the triple at indoor nats

If he wanted to he could break Rupp's NR in the 5000m if he ran USA nats, but he's already proven himself to be the greatest. All he needed was a sub 4 mile which he now has

Interestingly, if you plug his marks into ventolin's calc, you get

3'59.72, 8'29.46= 13'41.04, 28'55, and 1'51.64 for 800.

I don't take these numbers as seriously as ventolin though, I just think they're interesting. Whether Lukas would run 13'41 or 13'37 is too precise for any calculator to ever figure out. Still, it's interesting

I think it's better to look for a line of fit

Now, people who saw that mile race say he looked like a 3'57/3'58 guy off even pace ( they split a slow 2'02 ) & on top of that i'm sure his 8'29 couda been a bit quicker off even pace

A prelim line of fit is possibly :

51.00 / 1'50.00 -> 3'39.9 , 3'57.6 , 7'49.8 , 8'27.3 , 13'39.7 , 28'59.4

I don't know what the HS records are for 5 & 10k ?

I don't think he woud break 13'40 or 29'00 currently ( those above are for a "perfect" race )

Oh, come on, Track Critic... You're a long way from H.L. Mencken.

How fast does a 4:01.8 miler and 8:03:57 3k guy run 5k? The answer is 13:37.91. With HS runners you don't have enough races to draw a lot of conclusions.

Ventolin^3: Why do you assume that even pace is ideal? Is there any evidence for this? Aren't most record times above 800m set by running negative splits?

You need to limit the argument of who the best is to specific events. The 800, mile, 2 mile, 5k, and xc are all different races. You can't say that someone is the best high school "distance" runner of all time unless they have the best times in all the distance track events and won the most national championshiops in xc. Since nonone has done this you need to limit your argument to specific events.

LV is the best two miler of all time and tied as the best XC runner.

jimmy joe john mackey wrote:Ventolin^3: Why do you assume that even pace is ideal? Is there any evidence for this? Aren't most record times above 800m set by running negative splits?

i imagine that is more a function of the guys having pace misjudgements rather than actively going for -ve splits - it is very hard to run even pace

if you put in the requisite effort, it can be approached :

2'32.05 / 2'30.26 / 2'34.91 / 2'31.30 / 2'31.22

apart from slow 3rd km, the other km were pretty even :

the 1st 2k average : 2'31.16

the last 2k average : 2'31.26

I think that is partly right (in that negative splitting has a lot to do with race psychology and the individuals involved), but surely you can imagine physiological reasons (a hypothesis) why even pace might not be the most efficient way to run a certain distance. So, for example, physiologically speaking, one might be able to successfully run the last 400m of a mile race in 56 seconds, off a four minute pace, in other words, kick, when doing so in the second or third laps might not be as efficient.

I suppose you could do an experiment (for 1600m):

Group A attempts to run each lap in 59 seconds.

Group B attempts to run the first 800m in 2:00, and the second two in 58 a piece.

Group C attempts to run the first 1200m in 3:00 and the last 400m in 56 seconds.

And variations on the same. (One group could run the first and last 200m in 28 seconds, and the rest at 4:00 1600m pace, for instance.)

Which one comes out on top?

adfa wrote:How fast does a 4:01.8 miler and 8:03:57 3k guy run 5k? The answer is 13:37.91. With HS runners you don't have enough races to draw a lot of conclusions.

that 8'03 is the pace for 13'25

he ran 13'37, so clearly that 3k time is nonsensical for him - a jog

all i'm saying is that LV ran 5k/10k in his current form, those are kinda times i woud put as limits

i don't think there is any physiological reason you can't run a 1500 at even pace

in fact, bayi in his epic 3'32.2wr split 2'50.3 at 1200m, which was 3'32.9 pace - he didn't have a substantially quicker last last lap than rest of race pace

also hicham split 2'44.75 in rieti '02 = 3'25.9 pace - he blamed his failure not to destroy the wr that day as "failure to concentrate" at the end - his target was 3'24.8 !

for your variations, i only know a physics method to flatten them out :

- Group A attempts to run each lap in 59 seconds ->3'56.00

- Group B attempts to run the first 800m in 2:00, and the second two in 58 a piece ->

3'55.86

- Group C attempts to run the first 1200m in 3:00 and the last 400m in 56 seconds ->

3'55.56

- One group could run the first and last 200m in 28 seconds, and the rest at 4:00 1600m pace, for instance ->same as C

there is actually very little to be gained in most cases from flattening out splits

you need extremes to get anything substantial :

- kip's 1'41.2wr off a 48.3 ->1'40.9 off 2s split differential & 1'40.8 off even pace

- aouita's 3'29.7 with a 52.7 ->3'29.1 off even pace