World Records will get faster and faster either with or without drugs.

J.O. wrote:

El Guerrouj aims to perfect a fluid style, at pace. Kada argued that El Guerrouj’s stride length will rarely fall during a fast mile/ 1500m.

He will only slow when his stride frequency slows.

Strength exercises concentrate on all body parts. Bounding is also used and while talking about this Kada mentioned the names of Coe and Said Aouita.

Strength training is split into three parts: with weights, natural methods such as bounding and hill training.

Hill training is used to “improve the movement of arms and legs, stride and speed”.

Sessions include 10-15x250-500m.

That's a good training session, but how is this any different than what people have been using? How does this increase stride length indefinitely? There will come a point where a person can't stride any farther without breaking their legs off. There are limits. How do you know we haven't reached those or are close to reaching those limits?

Rekrunner, which Fitzgerald book is this? Sounds good...

J.0. wrote:

Why would Dibaba shorten her stride to get faster?

To eliminate all the time she is wasting bouncing up and down and floating along in the air.

To paraphrase Zatopek, running is not gymnastics, it is not necessary to look pretty and impress anyone.

Junxia Wang could run 28:50 at her best. She would have beaten Dibaba by more than a minute.

In fact Elvan Abeylegesse had Dibaba on the ropes in Beijing and could easily have won that race, if she'd not made the mistake of waiting for the kick. Abeylegesse is a smoother runner and will make the faster marathoner.

Anyway, now I see where you're going, and disagree with cultivating a form like Dibaba's.

"Brain Training for Runners"A lot of training approaches understates, or simply ignores the role of the brain. Matt tries to explain many different ways that the brain is important, and gives a few techniques that help convince the brain that it's OK to go faster.In the he describes a pragmatic and practial approach, combining standard training programs, with some technique drills, some stretching and strengthening exercises, and some cues to think about to help maintain proper form throughout the entire effort.I find it's a good complement to any approach, but then again, what do I know?

eurodonkey wrote:

Rekrunner, which Fitzgerald book is this? Sounds good...

I understand that many of your ideas do not come from you, but from your recent personal investigations.To be fair, yes when poked and prodded, more bits and pieces of answers come forth in several threads over time. Meanwhile, you suffer more abuse than you deserve, in my opinion, because your initial descriptions are too cursory, and it requires a few iterations.I do remember your advice, and my promise to consider it. However, in my case, of course we can't rule out early dementia, but something I thought was "runner's knee", which may actually be a meniscus problem, is preventing me from trying any new experiments.

J.0. wrote:

I didn't come up the the theory neuro-muscular coordination, or general relativity, or quantum physics, or any other clever theories, I think you are giving me too much credit there.

But I did tell you how to increase your stride length, a few months ago, don't you remember? I even reminded you, and asked if you had tried my suggestions. Have you forgotten that too.

Early onset dementia? I hope not, but there may be a cure soon. Lets hope so.

someone else wrote:

J.O. wrote:

That is not quite correct. Yes pace helps you maintain a longer stride, but that pace comes from the stride length.

Speed work alone will not give you this. You need to be able to maintain a longer stride for long distances too, in order to make big improvements.

That's circular reasoning. Pace depends on stride length and stride length depends on pace? Wtf are you talking about?

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You're missing the point. It's not circular reasoning. More force applied to the groudn gives you a longer stride, this gives you more pace, more pace means more momentum, this momentum helps you maintain the stride.

Folks, this guy is f***ing with you. If you haven't figured that out by now, this last post should remove all shadow of a doubt.

J.0. wrote:

You're missing the point. It's not circular reasoning. More force applied to the groudn gives you a longer stride, this gives you more pace, more pace means more momentum, this momentum helps you maintain the stride.

someone else wrote:

I never said it's impossible to get a longer stride. I said, how do you know that's all you need to maintain a certain pace over long distances?

Again, why do drugs not make a difference?

I never said that a longer stride is all you need to maintain a certain pace over a longer distance, I said that a longer stride which gives you more pace which in turn gives you a higher stride rate, is what runners should obviously be aiming for.

And you don't need drugs to gain a longer faster stride. You need training specifically aimed at this. Speed work and endurance work alone will only provide a certain amount of improvement. To go beyond this plateau you need some ballistic work. Bounding is an obvious choice here, but there are other effective methods too.

J.R. wrote:

J.0. wrote:

Why would Dibaba shorten her stride to get faster?

To eliminate all the time she is wasting bouncing up and down and floating along in the air.

To paraphrase Zatopek, running is not gymnastics, it is not necessary to look pretty and impress anyone.

Junxia Wang could run 28:50 at her best. She would have beaten Dibaba by more than a minute.

In fact Elvan Abeylegesse had Dibaba on the ropes in Beijing and could easily have won that race, if she'd not made the mistake of waiting for the kick. Abeylegesse is a smoother runner and will make the faster marathoner.

Anyway, now I see where you're going, and disagree with cultivating a form like Dibaba's.

************************************

J.R. Dibaba isn't wasting energy bouncing up and down and floating along in the air, that's ridiculous. She has a super efficient stride.

Can you not understand that different runners have different biomechanics?

rekrunner wrote:

I understand that many of your ideas do not come from you, but from your recent personal investigations.

To be fair, yes when poked and prodded, more bits and pieces of answers come forth in several threads over time. Meanwhile, you suffer more abuse than you deserve, in my opinion, because your initial descriptions are too cursory, and it requires a few iterations.

I do remember your advice, and my promise to consider it. However, in my case, of course we can't rule out early dementia, but something I thought was "runner's knee", which may actually be a meniscus problem, is preventing me from trying any new experiments.

Well thanks, but I still don't believe I have invented anything. Also, I keep the posts short. Who is going to read a long post? Only loonies do long posts on this here letsrun.

I hope your knee gets better, and I hope you get good advice and treatment without wasting money. I'm sure I don't need to tell you, beware of quacks?

eight out of ten wrote:

Folks, this guy is f***ing with you. If you haven't figured that out by now, this last post should remove all shadow of a doubt.

J.0. wrote:

You're missing the point. It's not circular reasoning. More force applied to the groudn gives you a longer stride, this gives you more pace, more pace means more momentum, this momentum helps you maintain the stride.

*************************************

So you are one of the many who knows nothing about biomechanics?

I suppose you think it's all about doing the magic 180 strides per minute? Or whatever bullshit you read in Runners World?

Your own posts aren't even internally consistent. You've now generated 6 pages of people who are more confused about what you're saying than when the thread started. If you're a troll, that's a resounding success. If I've misjudged you and you're sincere, you probably ought to re-evaluate your communication strategy.

It takes time to get these messages across. If it was simple, everyone would be an awesomely fast runner.

J.0. wrote:

It takes time to get these messages across. If it was simple, everyone would be an awesomely fast runner.

You can't just leap through the air indefinitely. Eventually, you'll need to apply more force to the ground to keep yourself from slowing down too much. Over the course of a race, it gets harder to maintain that same amount of force, so your momentum slows, your muscles get tired, and you can't "bound" anymore. There has to be an efficient middle ground.

J.0. wrote:

It takes time to get these messages across. If it was simple, everyone would be an awesomely fast runner.

How do you know that everyone isn't already an awesomely fast runner? Do you have some sort of objective criteria, scientifically derived?

J.O. wrote:

Strides will get longer. This does not require pharmacology.

I think this opinion is too obvious to be controversial, so why do so few people express it?

What scientific evidence do you have that people are running with shorter than optimal strides?

Thanks in advance for your non-answer.

Thanks for that -- as you know, loonies can write short posts too. I often write long posts, and read many, in spite of knowing better. Of course it's not the length of the posts that make them great, but the richness and density of content. Some long posts are sparse in that respect. I think the best posts are short, yet informative, but that takes even longer to write.On the other hand, I am often surprised and amazed at the density of lunacy that can be condensed into so few sentences.Regarding my knee, I thought it was a case of runner's knee (and it still may be), and was treating it myself with rest, stretching and strengthening exercises (I read about it in "Brain Training"). However, after 5 weeks of not really completely going away, I went to a sports specialist who ruled out a lot of stuff, but wants to see an MRI to rule out a torn meniscus. I'm an American, but live in a country with comprehensive national health care, so wasting my money is not a big issue. My wife keeps pushing me to go see a bone-cracker for a general tune-up. And I've been considering physio-therapy, or some kind of deep-tissue massage, to help regain some mobility and flexibility in some aching joints (e.g. volleyball shoulder). So no need to worry about me -- there are no quacks in these fields.See how long these posts can get -- and I wasn't really even trying?

J.0. wrote:

Well thanks, but I still don't believe I have invented anything. Also, I keep the posts short. Who is going to read a long post? Only loonies do long posts on this here letsrun.

I hope your knee gets better, and I hope you get good advice and treatment without wasting money. I'm sure I don't need to tell you, beware of quacks?

He never said today's strides are "shorter than optimal". I think the correct way to interpret this idea is that with more effective training, optimal strides will get increasingly longer, as times get faster. I.e. if and when 10K times are approaching 20:00, the strides will be about 2.5 meters, rather than cadence approaching 250.Don't try to use science as a weapon if you are untrained.

Another way 2 look at it wrote:

What scientific evidence do you have that people are running with shorter than optimal strides?

Thanks in advance for your non-answer.

someone else wrote:

J.0. wrote:

It takes time to get these messages across. If it was simple, everyone would be an awesomely fast runner.

You can't just leap through the air indefinitely. Eventually, you'll need to apply more force to the ground to keep yourself from slowing down too much. Over the course of a race, it gets harder to maintain that same amount of force, so your momentum slows, your muscles get tired, and you can't "bound" anymore. There has to be an efficient middle ground.

*************************************************

Yes, but we just have to apply a good pacing strategy as always. Your stride may gradually get slightly shorter, but then when you are near the finish, you will recruit some of those those unused fast twitch fibers and lengthen and quicken your stride again.