Dominguez detained in doping investigation

Sprint Geezer certainly has a point regarding the incoherence

of Canova's posts.

Renato...

I enjoy reading many of your training insights, but this statement, unless you can back it up with data, is complete bull shit:

"One of the marks that makes the difference between very good athletes and TOP CHAMPIONS is the fact that ALL THE BEST AFRICAN RUNNERS can enhance, after 3-4 months of Aerobic Training at high level, their global volume of blood of 20-25%. This means that they can run WITH ONE LITER OF BLOOD MORE IN THEIR CIRCULATORY SYSTEM, increasing in absolute natural way their ability in transporting Oxygen."

I have worked my entire life in physiology and sport performance, and unless you can show differential plasma volume expansion data in Africans, compared to sea-level athletes, this is complete B.S., and just confuses the average LetsRun reader.

I will make my case, using published DATA, not conjecture as you do.

As reviewed by: Convertino V. A.(1991) Blood volume: its adaptation to endurance training. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 23:1338–1348.

The average increase in plasma volume from training is 5 to 10% increase. NOT 25% as you have reported (although individual responses can be 5 to ~20%).

The key, is that this response does NOT seem to be enhanced in Africans, as further reviewd by Gore (altitude expert from Australia) in:

"Furthermore, it has recently been reported that high-altitude natives of Ethiopia demonstrate a similar [Hb], serum EPO concentration, and oxygen saturation within the normal sea-level range (10). It seems that Ethiopian highlanders, like Tibetans, have exceptional adaptations of oxygen uptake or delivery that are not associated with an increased red blood cell production in the presence of a hypoxemic stimulus (10). The success of Ethiopian distance runners, who predominantly live in the highlands of Ethiopia, demonstrates the performance capabilities of these people, which is apparently not attributable to their increased red cell volume or superior VO2max as a result of residing at altitude.

with ref #10 being:

10. BEALL, C. M., M. J. DECKER, G. M. BRITTENHAM, I. KUSHNER, A. GEBREMEDHIN, and K. P. STROHL. An Ethiopian pattern of human adaptation to high-altitude hypoxia. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 99:17215–17218, 2002.

Let me repeat part of the quote above "which is apparently not attributable to their increased red cell volume or superior VO2max as a result of residing at altitude."

You conjecture, without data, wears thin and you loose credibility.

And since Renato also mentioned Bengt Saltin, here are the references to his 2 main studies comparing Kenyans with Scandanvians:

Saltin B, Larsen H, Terrados N, Bangsbo J, Bak T, Kim CK, Svedenhag J, Rolf CJ.Aerobic exercise capacity at sea level and at altitude in Kenyan boys, junior and senior runners compared with Scandinavian runners. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1995 Aug;5(4):209-21.

Saltin B, Kim CK, Terrados N, Larsen H, Svedenhag J, Rolf CJ. Morphology, enzyme activities and buffer capacity in leg muscles of Kenyan and Scandinavian runners. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1995 Aug;5(4):222-30.

It should be noted, that neither one of these studies even examined plasma/blood volume expansion differences between African and sea-level athletes, as Renato suggests.

So, which data are you referring to Renato?

Ghost, you've been in Africa. Why do you still think there would be lifestyle, nutritional and coaching improvements in Spain or other Western countries?I have experience of Kenya. You can point out if Ethiopia is much different.Lifestyle: Athletes train and rest. They have less distractions than those living in developed countries. The advantage is with Africa here.Nutrition: A lack of fridges, freezers and reliable electricity means athletes eat fresher food as it cannot be stored for as long. Processed food is much rarer than in Europe or America. Advantage Africa again.Coaching: Why do you think Spanish coaches are better than Ethiopian or Kenyan coaches?In an earlier post you implied Bezabeh was at best semi-literate. How do you know this or is it just a very condescending assumption?

ghost wrote:

It's sad to see Mr Canova facing criticism on this topic, as he has integrity. However, he implies that Bezabeh was surely doped, which has not been proved. On that one, he is possibly 'jumping the gun.'

We have to wait and see. Bezabeh's progression is possible from an athlete who is relatively new to the advantages of living in a western euro country with all the advantages (nutrition, life style, coaching) that go with it.

Ghost in Saudi.

http://www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today.

I think what Canova is saying is that the best athletes are exceptional and don't correspond to average values.Who were the subjects? You tell Renato to give you data to back up his claim. Unless the data you're using is tested on athletes of 27mins or better standard for 10k (or equivalent for other distances) it doesn't disprove what he is saying.

kip12345754 ---

I fully agree that exceptional athletes do not correspond to average values-- that is what makes them world class. And if you read the publsihed data by Saltin, you will see that African's have higher muscle enzymes, better running economy and lower limb weight (which, might improve running ecnonomy). To my knowledge (and unless Renato can produce it), Bengt Saltin has never shown a difference between AFricans and sea-level elite athletes in blood/plasma volume changes with training! Nor, to my knowlege, as any one else.

So kip12345754, I produce data, even showing Bengt's data that Renato quoted (incorrectly) and you push back?

You are right, the data i have produced does not disprove Renato....but at least I have provided something, other than conjecture, to support myself..something Renato has not done.

Isn't Renato Canova coaching Sergiy Lebid? The guy who's known for being in really good shape at the European cross champ every time. And not so great the rest of the year...

[quote]Mats Nilsson wrote:

Forgive my rant (no, I have never done drugs and I do not advocate people using PEDS)............

You are advocating or at least condoning athletes who use drugs

'...Honestly, as a former track and field athlete myself (4-time All American with Alabama and UTEP) I can honestly say that systematic doping in sports is pretty much equivalent to an student/academician/researcher regularly popping a pill to stay awake '

No, the equivilant is stealing the exam paper beforehand. Being awake does not give the intelligence to pass the exam. Running does not require intelligence merely to go faster

You seem quite clever and went to great lengths to demonstrate this but lack common sense. I also noticed you like to brag about your running achievments and probably like to use the drug issue for a lack of further success

Certain events have more doping than others. Sprints and power events

There is an obvious pattern of countries in doping in distance events. It's nothing to do with ethics but altitude or lack of

Instead of trying to make up for the disadvantage of being born at altitude by moving and training at altitude (and 2 wks does not cut it) they try to cut the corner

There is no rule to stop students taking a caffeine pill to stay awake but there are rules in this professional sport to try to prevent people cheating by doping. The only thing thats wrong is the sanctions are too soft. They are actually commiting fraud and it should be treated legally as such. Failing that (maybe because of burden of proof) increase the length of bans. 2 years is not a sufficient deterrent as you can see if you check the dopers list - but while you are there notice the lack of elite (I mean true elite not braggarts) runners from Ethiopia or Kenya especially when you consider their number of elites compared to a country like Morocco or Spain

It may be a small matter to you but nobody has to watch the sport. If we stop watching there will be no money and a lot less reason to dope

Yes, Bezabeh could have gone on training and racing in Ethiopia, but there are so many runners there, and it is difficult for them to stand out, without getting a 'contract' with a club, and most of those clubs are in Addis Ababa, the capital. It is a matter of luck. There are dozens of other athletes like Bezabeh with similar potential, but most of them are more concerned with putting food on the table than running. There are not many chances to make money in Ethiopia, and the Federation there (in Addis) controls the athletes there much more in comparison with Kenya, where athletes have an easier time (but not that easy) to get invites to race overseas.

Forget getting access to the track in Addis....unless you are Haile, or one of the top, top elite....you and the other Ethiopian athletes, will be told to leave the area. Some runners run around the outside of the stadium, sharing space with street children and other unfortunates...but the surface is tarmac....and crowded...hardly ideal.

Bezabeh was lucky, as he made it out to Spain, and once there, could train like a real pro, and not have to worry about putting food on the table. That is the difference I was referring to.

Go to Addis, and you will see hundreds of athletes training in the morning in Mesquel square, which is nothing more than a wide open area with steps in the city centre. Others who are lucky, might get a ride to the hills, some 30 minutes by car or mini bus outside of Addis. You can see the problems for Addis athletes.....nowhere good to train, unless you have the money to drive to the hills (Entoto mountain).To run in Mesquel square, you can only do it very early in the morning (4.30am - 6.am) after that - traffic, people...impossible to move comfortably....ask Richard Nerurkar, a famous British resident and former World Cup marathon winner (as well as sub 28 minutes 10,000 runner).

In Assella, the hometown of Haile, the situation is not much better. Most runners log mileage round the outside of the rocky track, on the grass and stones!....Assella town is about 2 miles long, but it is all tarmac. To run in nature you have to go outside the town, and again that costs money.....Ethiopia is about 15 years behind Kenya in development.....in many ways it is 4th world rather than third world.....

Bezabeh.....we shall see what happens. But people should not jump to conclusions.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today.

Renato--

You must understand that your self-serving testimony needs significant independent corroboration before anyone can take it seriously.

You speak of facts, but us posters don't? How can you know that we don't? And how can we know that you do?

"So, believe me, the most part of athletes WANT to be clean, and to see where they can arrive, with their strength only."

I totally agree with this--however, that is only the FIRST part of a multi-part story, and is far from the entire picture.

The decision to dope is an individual one, ultimately, unless an athlete is in a brutally coercive national program. Many times, even coaches are unaware of everything that an athlete is doing, especially in international situations, where the national team coach is not the athlete's personal, or club coach.

While the sentiment you express is an honorable one, there are just too many confounding factors affecting your "facts" to enable your "facts" to be considered determinative.

Here are some articles that support Renato's position:

Martino M, Gledhill N, Jamnik V. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Jun;34(6):966-71.

High VO2max with no history of training is primarily due to high blood volume. (link to abstract below)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12048323

T D Noakes. Br J Sports Med 2005;39:578 (link below)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725277/

Bouchard C, An P, Rice T, Skinner JS, Wilmore JH. J Appl Physiol. 1999 Sep;87(3):1003-8.

Familial aggregation of VO(2max) response to exercise training: results from the HERITAGE Family Study. (link below)

http://jap.physiology.org/content/87/3/1003.long

Vollaard NBJ, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Fredriksson K, Rooyackers O, Jansson E, Greenhaff PL, Timmons JA, Sundberg CJ.

Systematic analysis of adaptations in aerobic capacity and submaximal energy metabolism provides a unique insight into determinants of human aerobic performance.

J Appl Physiol (February 5, 2009) (link below)

http://jap.physiology.org/content/106/5/1479

H. Kainulainen. Run more, perform better—old truth revisited

http://jap.physiology.org/content/106/5/1477.full

All these articles support the high variability of the training response. I imagine that ELITE runners have a high initial oxidative capacity (VO2max>70 mL/min/kg) but more importantly have a high training response (>90%) in peripheral and central adaptations.

If you look at the rarity of these traits, high baseline ~ 0.1% of population and high training response ~0.1% of population and multiply them to obtain the incidence of having both traits you obtain a value of 0.01% or 1 per 10,000 in the general American & European population for an ELITE runner profile. Unfortunately, similar studies have not been performed in East African populations.

Thank you for stating (eloquently) what I have wanted to do for a long time. We Americans, especially those who competed from Southern California clubs, for far too long have made big money and fame due in no small account to the PEDS that have been used to advantage. It almost makes me want to puke when certain posters come onto this board bragging of Olympic medals from their So Cal heroes. The number of these who have been caught is increasing, but far too many have gone into their "retirement" as Olympic champions and WR holders. Bogus accomplishments and phony athletes don't make for American heroes in my opinion. And yes, to knock the Spaniards for getting caught is about as disingenuous as we can get.

A friend of mine was talking about Renato's posts. Clearly from the response he had and some of them on here, there are a lot of different views.

I think what mainly Renato is saying is, "A top notch athlete, the very tip top in the world" is very different from even some other world class athletes and does not need to dope. With his comments on the women's steeple I think he is saying there is a huge difference between a 14:40 5k woman (basically a Shalane Flanagan, who has an Olympic bronze) and a Meseret Defar (14:10).

I can understand the main point above that I think he is trying to make for sure.

He may be saying, "doping will not help them as much." which I could be convinced of as well.

If he is saying, "None of the African athletes dope" that is a ridiculous statement. First he does not know what athletes outside of his group are doing. Secondly, I'd argue whenever there is money (or ego or survival) involved, human experience has shown people will cheat. That means Americans, people in Africa, etc.

Pamela Chepchumba tested positive for EPO. That is an example of a fairly good African athlete cheating. Perhaps we could just come up with a list of Africans who have tested positive. I think Renato is saying that none of the tip top East Africans have tested positive and they do not need to dope. It's an argument that can be made.

He seems to say the Moroccans are dirty.

bump

ventolin^3 wrote:

the assertion doping ( likely epo or blood doping ) doesn't work on east africans is wrong

logic dictates it will have an effect, but as you point out of their higher natural haematocrits/lactate tolerance will likely mean a lesser effect with doping

if you have a "natural" 3'35 white boy & he dopes by x, he may end up a 3'32 guy, perhaps even 3'31

an east african who "naturally" is a 3'30 guy also dopes by x amount, may end up at 3'28.5

they both will improve but the east african by far less as they "naturally" have such high pre-existing parameters of haematocrit/lactate tolerance

it's a question of degrees of effect NOT a blanket

"no effect on east africans"

we don't know a about Bezabeh. Maybe he hadn't maxed out before he was doped. Anyway 12.57 is not far off 12.51

(this year's best) and he is #11 on the list this year.

It is a silly statement to say he is not elite.

Not making any actual accusations but Nicholas Kemboi would have to rate as a major red flag. A talented 19yo without any major success. He comes out with a fast 5k then one of the greatest 10s ever (26.30). This is after 7 weeks of "proper training" with a coach who has a history of involvement with blood doping during his time in Italy. Kemboi also was happy to trade his Kenyan passport for a Qatari one, suggesting perhaps a mercenary attitude to his running.

I find his performance pretty amazing considering what pre 1990s Kenyans could run. Multiple World xc and Olympic 5 champ John Ngugi, a renowned hard trainer couldn't run within 40 secs of this time. So some kid could run so much faster than great Kenyans by just doing 7 weeks of PROPER TRAINING!!

Kemboi did run a 26.51 a couple of years later but had a less than great career. There may be many reasons for this but unfortunately his career fits slap bang into the dopers profile.

I am curious to know what that PROPER TRAINING was???

Renato, you're talking drivel. You were the one who came on here and said top athletes from e africa did NOT have high hematocrits but only 39-40%. Now you're saying they have super-high HCTs which can quickly cause a blood volume expansion of 25% when they go down to sea-level?

Enough of the superman-came-from-africa, crap. You're talking to adults here.

"Anyway, I continue speaking about NICHOLAS KEMBOI. He was already n. 4 and n. 7 in two different editions of World Cross Country Junior Ch. (2001 - 2002), so was not an unknown athlete. I'm his coach from september of 2001. Soon after WCCCH 2002, he was injured in a muscle, and lost 4 months of the past season. When came back, was not able to do any speed workouts, because yet felt pain in the leg. So, I decided to move him to longer distances, as he has the possibilities to become a very top marathon runner in the future (he's really born at the end of 1983). In march of this year, he was able running HM in Lisbon in 60:31, without any specific training, demonstrating his attitudes for long run. Then, was for about 40 days in Portugal for some road race, and went to Hengelo (10000m) without track preparation. His 28'19" was not so bad. After 2 weeks in Kenya, he came with me in Switzerland (Davos) from the beginning of July. I preferred to develop a good base of volume, running about 250 km per week during the first 2 weeks, with very slow training on track, but using short sprints uphill (60-80m about) for improving his capacity in recruiting the most part of his muscular fibres. He went running in Sotteville (13'42", 5th position) on 8/07, then in Algier (19/07), yet 13'42". Only after this race I decided to put some work of speed in his training. In short time, I discovered his speed, and was a surprise also for me. After a work with 4 sets of 600/500/400/300/200m (2 min rec. and 5 min among sets) in 1'33" / 1'16" / 60" / 44" / 28", he was able running the last 200m (free) in 23"7 ! So, speaking with him, I understood that he was not fast BECAUSE WAS SURE TO BE SLOW. He decided to try, changing his mentality. So, he went to Heusden (2/08) running in 13'14"43 after pacing (3rd position), then in San Sebastian (10/08) yet in 13'14"32 n. 2 with many mistakes during last lap, then in Zurich (15/8) almost won running in 13'01"14 with a good final. So, we decided to train hard 3 weeks for running 10000 in Bruxelles. I was sure about 26'45", but 26'30" surprised me also. In any case, during the last period his improvement was terrible, because every thing was really easy. For ex., on 23/8 he did a work with 3000m (2' rec) 6 x 60m sprint climbing (2' rec) x 4 times, more a final 1000 fast. His times were (in St. Moritz from 31/7, at 1800m of altitude) 8'23", 8'24", 8'17", 8'23" and 2'30"5 with last lap in 54"6 and last 200 in 24"8 (Kwalia took 5" during last lap)."

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=220022

My infos come from Bengt Saltin, directly. We were together in two congresses, and he explained me the research he did. I don't think I can have doubts about what Saltin told me.

In any case, for example, when we speak about the globular volume, hematocryt, hemoglobin, I have personal and direct data of my top athletes, instead every type of studies from researchers NEVER involved the best runners in the World. This for a very simple reason : physiologysts want to use their classic protocols, AND WANT TO TAKE THE ATHLETES INTO THEIR OWN SERVICE. So, the top athletes are not interested in becoming "Guinea Pigs" for something that doesn't produce, for them, any advantage.

This is the case that happened when Shaheen bettered the WR of steeple in 2004. I have connections with many scientists, due to my role as lecturer in IAAF, and they asked me to test him. I refused, because they didn't want to check the dynamic process of training, but wanted to have a "static picture" of the athlete. This is a bullshit. Which physiologist went to study, for example, 4 months of training, TESTING THE EVOLUTION OF PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS, from a period of normal shape till a period of top shape ? Training is something dynamic, non static.

If, for example, we know that, in Formula One, the performances of the best cars are : 380 km/h of speed, 19,000 recvolutions and 900 HP, we have a STATIC picture, that cant help anybody. But, immediately when the car was projected, the values were 350 km/h, 17,500 revolutions and 800 HP. The point is : WHICH WAY WAS USED FOR EVOLVING THE CAR from point A to point B.

There are two types of Science. I try to explain, also if may be with my English is difficult to understand.

1- INDUCTIVE SCIENCE. We study a project, and on the base of our study, we go to carry out it (for example, when we make a building). Mathematics is the base of inductive methods. In the INDUCTIVE METHODS we can see a well determinated trend, and every point is connected with the next step.

2- DEDUCTIVE SCIENCE (or EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE). We study the phenomen, and every phenomen is particular, not connected with some other similar phenomen.

The big mistake that physiologists do, is to transform a DEDUCTIVE SCIENCE in INDUCTIVE SCIENCE, thinking that the behavior of the body of normal persons is the same of top athletes.

I'm a methodologist. When we speak about training, we have to distinguish between TECHNICAL TRAINING and PHYSIOLOGICAL TRAINING. When we speak of technical events (for example, in sports like Basket, Volley, Football, or in athletics Jumps, Throws etc.), the physical training is the support of the technical training, so TECHNIQUE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT. Of course, if a basket player 210cm tall has the same technique of another 180cm tall, probably he is better, but the main point is TECHNIQUE. In the last days there was an interesting analysis about the players of the best European Clubs of football, and the players of Barcelona (that is without doubt the best Club in the World, at the moment) are the smallest and the lightest (177 x 72 kg), and for this reasons are the best in individual technical fundamentals.

When we speak about a runner of endurance, the TECHNICAL TRAINING doesn't have very much importance : AN ATHLETE RUNNING FROM LONG TIME IS ABLE RUNNING (TECHNICALLY) AT THE SAME WAY WHEN IN SHAPE OR WHEN OUT OF SHAPE.

So, I ask to physiologists one question :

I have an athlete able running, with little training, 10 km in 31' (normal in Africa, not so normal in Europe...). I give him a training program respecting the basis of methodology (graduality, continuity, modulation) lasting 4 months, and, at the end of this period, the athlete runs 28'. The question is : WHY ?

If we go to investigate, for example, the values of his blood, we can see that they change, BECAUSE IF THERE IS NO CHANGE IN PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY THERE IS NO CHANGE IN THE FINAL PERFORMANCE.

And we can discover something very strange, if connected with the normal convinctions : FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN THE SHAPE GROWS, THE HEMATOCRYTE IS LOWER.

How is possible to explain this fact if we have, for example, the mentality of cyclists, thinking that if the hematocryte is under 45 you cant be competitive ?

I give you two data about Italian athletes, of course at the limit, but objective (not supposed) :

GENNY DI NAPOLI had a normal hemoglobin of 18.5. When he was at 17.5, the reaction of his body was the same of somebody anaemic, and he felt very weak.

GELINDO BORDIN won OG in Seoul 1988 with 12.8 of hemoglobin. If we went to some doctor in that period, he was not allowed to compete, because of this data, but Luciano Gigliotti had the check of training, and knew he was in the best shape of his life.

When I speak about what happens in the body of top athletes, I SPEAK ABOUT THEIR PHYSIOLOGY, and their physiology is different from the physiology of the normal groups used for physiological researches.

For example, do you know that top runners of 5000m can have a Steady State of about 9 mml/l (lasting about 8'), and top runners of 10000m of about 7.5 (lasting about 18'), that we call MAX LASS (Maximum Lactate Steady State) ? Do you think you can find some scientific study about this data ? BUT THIS IS A REALITY.

So, when we speak about the "classic physiology", my final consideration is : "These studies are wonderful, but the animal was wrong".

If you want to know what happens inside the body of a phenomen, the only way is to study the phenomen itself, and only who works with them can know the reality.