HRE wrote:
When you question the "experts" do you also question whether you might be one of the weird anomalies?
Well, even if I am, then shouldn't my need for a very intensive warm-up be included in their manifesto?
And wouldn't there be a good likelihood that a lot of other runners would have much better results if they sometimes did a warm-up like mine?
And if we are all individuals, then don't we all have our own anomalies?
wellnow wrote:...wouldn't there be a good likelihood that a lot of other runners would have much better results if they sometimes did a warm-up like mine?
Oh please please please tell us about your secret warm up routine?
Please?
R.L. Scribner wrote:
Another question, how fast would you expect Alan Webb to close a 5k that is won in 13:40? I mean, super fit Alan Webb, not current Alan Webb. Would he close in 50?
Good question, I guess using Webb as an example clouds things a little and I would prefer to stay away from him as his form and kick are so random and his 5km racing history isn't very deep.
Chebii has closed in 51 in a 13.10 race, and I would expect that if he was still in that kind of form that he would beat Bekele, unfortunately he is a shadow of the man that beat he was when he was destroying the best in the world with his kick.
Also re: willis:
He has split 48.X in a 4 x 400m relay, and I believe split 52 in his 800, PB. So possibly not the best example, but he can in no way get close to Bekele over 3/5/10km so you would expect that Bekele could get away with being a good deal slower and still run 3.32.
All that said Willis could now be a 3.29 man, we don't know.
1. How would they know what your routine is?
2. I don't know. Your neighbor, the World War I vet who just vacated the title of World's Oldest Man by dying at 113 attributed his longevity to "cigarettes, whisky, and wild, wild women." I have no idea how much longer an occasional individual might live if most of us adopted the old guy's routine nor do I know how much shorter the majority of our lifespans would be if we took his path.
3. Yes. But we also have more similarities. If we want to be faster distance runners we need to run. That's universal.
wellnow wrote:
HRE wrote:When you question the "experts" do you also question whether you might be one of the weird anomalies?
Well, even if I am, then shouldn't my need for a very intensive warm-up be included in their manifesto?
And wouldn't there be a good likelihood that a lot of other runners would have much better results if they sometimes did a warm-up like mine?
And if we are all individuals, then don't we all have our own anomalies?
No, your warmup should not be included and no, other runners would NOT have much better results.
That is the DEFINITION of an anomaly, that it is outside the mainstream and normal experience of someone or something.
My recent post about EL G-in-a-boat got me thinking ... It's not so outrageous an idea ... and it's been done.
Talking about the transferability of metabolic strengths between endurance-based sports, the Brits did this before the Beijing Olympics, didn't they. They called it, "targeted talent identification". Look for someone with previous success in sport who has (for some reason) given up their premier event and see if they can transfer their physical ability to another event. It was thought to be easier to find such an athlete (and certainly quicker turnaround time) than looking for a newbie and spending 6-8 years hoping they turn into a success story. The concept: take a proven success and teach them new tricks ...
The Brits' most notable success was Rebecca Romero born and brought up in Surrey, of an English mother and Spanish father. As a rower, she had won a silver medal at the Athens 2004 Olympics in the quadruple sculls, and was part of the British crew that won the 2005 World Championships in the quad sculls. (source: wikipedia)
Suffering from a persistent back injury, Romero retired from rowing in 2006. She later took up track cycling, and made rapid progress in her new sport, specialising in track endurance events.
In December 2006, Romero won a silver medal in the pursuit at the UCI Track World Cup event in Moscow - her international cycling debut - losing out to fellow Briton Wendy Houvenaghel.
Romero won her first Cycling World Championships medal in March 2007 with silver in the 3km pursuit. The following year, at the 2008 UCI Track Cycling World Championships, she won the individual and, (with Houvenaghel and Joanna Rowsell), team pursuit events.
She became the first British woman ever to compete in two different sports at the Olympic Games when she rode in the individual pursuit in Beijing. In winning the Olympic Gold, she also became only the second woman of any country (after Roswitha Krause of East Germany) to win a medal in two different sports at Summer Games.
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Elsewhere Peter Shakespear, who rowed for Australia during the 1970s before moving into coaching, has been working for British Rowing for the last five years.
He cut his “talent ID” teeth as part of the Australian Institute of Sport’s “Talent Search Program”. This scheme involved going into schools to look for young Aussies with the right stuff for rowing – muscled specimens with broad shoulders, long levers and big lungs.
One of his discoveries was Megan Still, who had been a runner until Shakespear and his team handed her an oar. A few years later, in 1996, she had a gold medal in the coxless pair to her name.
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Seems it might not be so difficult to graft a new skill set onto the proven capacity to build the required metabolic adaptations after all.
wellnow wrote:
If what Hadd is claiming was true about these fibers requiring years of training to reach their full aerobic capacity, then the skills of running and cycling would be largely transferable. They are not.
Seems like the metabolic requirements for Olympic-level success in rowing and cycling are largely transferable.
Rebecca Romero:
Olympic Silver medal (in a boat) — Athens 2004
Quit rowing — 2006
World Championship Siver medal — March 2007
Olympic Gold (on a bike) — Beijing 2008
That's not a lot of turnaround time (2006-2008) to perfect a new skill to the highest possible level.
So, wellnow, why exactly do runners need years and years to learn how to run properly? Isn't the skill of running easier than going from a boat to a bike?
The role of Devil's Advocate is a useful one and one you (wellnow) adopt often to good use but sometimes perhaps a shade too readily. We all should forever remain skeptical (I believe I am) and be willing to look for holes in any argument (especially our own), and in the evidence presented by ourselves and others. So, by all means keep doing it whenever justified, wellnow, but (at the same time) beware your temptation to present a knee-jerk solution. It only serves to puncture credibility.Like this ...
wellnow wrote:
...How TF does Bekele run the last lap of a fast 10,000 in 52.6? And how do Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar do similar things in the women's 5,000 and 10,000m races?
Good question. They train at 8,000-10,000ft where there is 25-30% less oxygen, which slows the distance paces by about 5-10%, but they can actually sprint faster due to less wind resistance...
I can just imagine wannabe sprint and distance coaches the world over slapping their foreheads in a moment of epiphany on reading these lines.
"Of course! Less wind resistance, quicker running paces! That must be why all the top sprinters in the world come from those people who are born and live at altitu ... oh, wait! ... "
"Well, anyway ... that must be why all the top American and Jamaican sprinters like that Bolt dude go and live and train for months at altitu ... oh, wait! ..."
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Here's a question for wellnow: I get all your advocating skill-training and do not doubt its validity within a total-training framework, but just off the top of my head I would guess sprinters, more than distance runners would spend a greater amount of time on the skill-related, neurological adaptations to running.
Okay, they do all the speed and resistance training, generate all the metabolic adaptations, but they must spend a significant amount of time on skill-learning. I would think you'd agree with that. Now, if I understood you correctly, you believe the skill side of running to be more valuable, more significant, than the metabolic side. Have I got that right?
So, (here's the question), why did Marion Jones take EPO?
Sprinters don't need the ability to run an all out 100m / 200m / 400m when they are tired! So that is probably the reason why they don't do as wellnow advocates and tells that the ethiopians are doing.
I can only imagine that a hell of a lot of fit runners around the world have tried finishing a race not really feeling tired. So when they can run an all out 800m or 1500m and not be tired in the end at all why shouldn't it be possible in a 5000m or 10000m? I have said it before in another thread but in the 80's a dane clocked 3.36,01 in the 1500m while having a personal best of 52,5s for the 400m and 1.52,5 min for the 800m! And all that shit about having no kick when being a ST is really stupid...
If you run lets say 20 km fast everyday and afterwards repeat some 100m sprints or whatever then your body naturally learns to save som energy for the sprinting! Usain Bolt doesn't need to practice sprinting when tired - it's not necessary when you begin the sprint from blocks completely fresh.
Equally I have found out that my speed becomes more useful in a race if I practice sprinting the day after my weekly longest run (up to 35 km) or actually just after my longer runs. I feel very strong in the races. With 3 laps to go in a 5000m race i might feel terrible but the last 200 - 400m I feel great when I begin kicking!
I completely agree with wellnow! It's not impossible for anyone to learn explosiveness and good speed in the end of a race!
chubba wrote:
R.L. Scribner wrote:Another question, how fast would you expect Alan Webb to close a 5k that is won in 13:40? I mean, super fit Alan Webb, not current Alan Webb. Would he close in 50?
Good question, I guess using Webb as an example clouds things a little and I would prefer to stay away from him as his form and kick are so random and his 5km racing history isn\'t very deep.
Chebii has closed in 51 in a 13.10 race, and I would expect that if he was still in that kind of form that he would beat Bekele, unfortunately he is a shadow of the man that beat he was when he was destroying the best in the world with his kick.
Yeah, Chebii is all over the place now, it\'s nothing like his 2003 days. He came within a second of Bekele in a race earlier this summer, 13:01 to 13:00. But then in the next one he was way back in 13:25. He\'s a guy from whom I was always anticipating an amazing comeback, but it looks less and less likely now.
chubba wrote:
Chebii has closed in 51 in a 13.10 race, and I would expect that if he was still in that kind of form that he would beat Bekele, unfortunately he is a shadow of the man that beat he was when he was destroying the best in the world with his kick.
When did Chebii run 51 in a 13:10 race? When was destgroying the best in the world. Chebii had a couple of wins in his entire career. He wasn't destroying anyone.
Hyperbole much? wrote:
[quote]chubba wrote:
When did Chebii run 51 in a 13:10 race? When was destgroying the best in the world. Chebii had a couple of wins in his entire career. He wasn't destroying anyone.
I remember Chebii beating bekele and that kick was IMPRESSIVE.
Hyperbole much? wrote:
chubba wrote:Chebii has closed in 51 in a 13.10 race, and I would expect that if he was still in that kind of form that he would beat Bekele, unfortunately he is a shadow of the man that beat he was when he was destroying the best in the world with his kick.
When did Chebii run 51 in a 13:10 race? When was destgroying the best in the world. Chebii had a couple of wins in his entire career. He wasn't destroying anyone.
Yeah, looking back at the results, this seems right. Once the best meets of 03 got started, Chebii only ended up winning two - Paris and Rome. It seems more impressive because these meets were back to back, and he outkicked Geb in one and both Geb and Bekele in the other, in very fast last laps. He didn't win any of the big meets after that, though.
1. This morning I attended a regional swim meet for club caliber(semi-elite) high school age athletes. The son of a friend was swimming the breast stroke, his weakest event.
Several of the parents explained to me that the proficiency for swimming strokes is often not transferrable and that most talented swimmers have at least one stroke of the four - usually breast or back- that limits him in the medley events, even though each swimmer practices every stroke twice per day, fifty weeks per year.
2. In high school I was a football guy who ran a consistent 4.5 forty and eventually benched 400 lbs.; a fast twitch guy in a fast twitch environment(cross country was a throw away sport).
Thirty years later, I lost some weight, put in the miles and can finish in the top 1-2 % of most marathons.
I'm getting the impression that this ST/FT, skill v. aerobic conditioning science is far from settled and certainly imprecise.
organic crunchy peanut butter wrote:
Yeah, looking back at the results, this seems right. Once the best meets of 03 got started, Chebii only ended up winning two - Paris and Rome. It seems more impressive because these meets were back to back, and he outkicked Geb in one and both Geb and Bekele in the other, in very fast last laps. He didn't win any of the big meets after that, though.
Always nice to see you posting, OCPB.
Given that you're the resident Chebii expert, did he actually close a 13:10 race in 51? I recall his awesome kicks, but was it actually such a fast race that he finished in 51? I remember him winning some really slow 3k (like 8:30) with an outrageous last lap, perhaps 51.
Apparently, Chebii closed in 50.68 at the Grand Prix 3k in 2002. However, that race was won in 8:33. Not 7:33, but 8:33. Still impressive, but not really indicative of anything.
Grand Prix Final, that is.
I rowed for a top 10 program in college that had a decent percentage of walk-ons, and definitely agree about translation of other aerobic sports to rowing. The best walk-ons on our team were usually the ones that did a sport prior to rowing (we had a swimmer and a few track studs that for one reason or another didn't run anymore). If you look at Wisconsin's (2007 champ) men's eight, they had a couple of distance runners in their top 8.
Just going by memory alone here, maybe the race was 13.20? I'm pretty certain it was in the US, in the early northern summer. maybe here:
1 Abraham Chebii [KEN] KEN 13:08.10
2 Benjamin Limo [KEN] KEN 13:11.67
3 Shadrack Kosgei [KEN] KEN 13:12.24
4 Markos Geneti [ETH] ETH 13:13.27
5 Luke Kipkosgei [KEN] KEN 13:19.17
6 William Kiptoo Kirui [KEN] KEN 13:30.63
7 David Galván [MEX] MEX 13:33.09
8 Adam Goucher [USA] USA 13:35.77
9 Abdihakem Abdirahman [USA] USA 13:37.96
10 Bob Kennedy [USA] USA 13:44.25