KU Coach-Bob Timmons, coach of Ryun and others-no holds barred article in RW

Well said, Jim Ryun! I think what everyone needs to do is step back and separate the man, the coach and the 'program'. It is fine to criticize the training program and say that it 'didn't work' for many, worked for some, or whatever. That is fair. Results, (good and bad) speak for themselves. What one can't question is the love and dedication that Bob Timmons gave to the sport and the school kids of Kansas throughout his life.

Living in the Past wrote:

One of Timmons's most promising high school recruits was the 880/miler Bryan McElroy, who, I believe, was from NY or NJ. He transferred to Villanova after his freshman year at KU. Anyone know why he left?

Timmons kicked him and Jan Johnson ( Who later was a 1972 Olympian) because he "thought" that they had both spoked pot.

I spoke to Bryan and Jan when I was writing my thesis and both said that neither of them had spoked pot at the time. Jan said that he was happy to follow his vaulting coach and Bryan was happy to run at Villinova and I believe that he was a sub 4 miler and WR holder at Villinova.

Craig Watcke wrote:

It seems that virtually everyone who was actully on the team for more than 2wks disagrees with your perception of reality. Sounds like you were at KU a yr or two before me, too bad I would have enjoyed seeing just what kind of competior you claim to be. Sorry your success in fun runs didn't cary over to college -

I ran 14:47 5k and a 31:28 10k both in the fall of 1983. After being hit by a car 2 years before on my bicycle at 55mph by a 91 year old man. You try coming back from that before you judge me.

I ran with team members for 3 years and not just two weeks.

I was only on the team 2 weeks but i would often run workouts with the team and ran the team time trial in 1982 and 1983 (7th in 1983.) I was 4th amoung KU runners in the race in the photograph in RW. I beat 4:02 miler and 1984 Olympic trials qualifier Terry Drake and 1984 marathoner trials qualifer Bob Busby, who is the second person behind Steve Pierce and I.

I like Brent, would not have run well with the mileage and massive number of intervals that was commmon in Timm ons program.

If you read in the RW blogs, I explained my history at KU.

It was not just 2 weeks.

I saw the good and bad in Coach Timmons. I only have good things to say about Timmie after he retired. We have had many conversations and all have been plesant.

One thing that is overlooked in the story and not mentioned is that, perhaps college track and field is not the best thing for USA Track and Field. Cliff Wiley is asked to run 6-12 races in a big meet to help the team. Maybe that is not the right approach. Timmons focused on winning, especially the Big 8 and like Wiley said, scholarships were a business contract. Oregon was different but most colleges were similar to Timmons approach.

Peter Snell was said that they used to laugh about the college system, and not just at Kansas. Freshmen would enter college as 4:12 milers and leave as 4:12 milers.

The problem isn't Timmons, it's the system. England and Kenya have more world class distance runners than the US.

Both countries use the club system.

I worked well under the club system when I ran, so I stayed with it. I knew what Brent went through and I didn't want to do the same. I had enough injuries that I had to deal with and I didn't want anymore. If I had run 3 weeks with Timmons, I wouldn't have run 14:47 5k or a 31:28 10k. I knew my body and I knew what I could handle, I couldn't handle the workouts that you ran.

My hats off to you and Tim Gundy and so many other runners that could handle the mileage and intervals that you did.

I remember that you were the best distance runner after you transfered to KU.

Again, I thought that the article would be a historical article and not talk about Timmons condition now. He wrote it not me. I know a great deal about the history of the KU program and I know that there were many great freshman distance runners that entered KU and did not last 4 years.

My case was not uncommon. Most lasted more than 2 weeks but most did not run 4 years under Timmons. My thesis was written 20 years ago and I have no authority on Timmons now.

When we spoke in November, he seemed like the same old Timmie, other than his hearing loss. My quote was correct but it was taken out of context and I have retracted what I said on the RW blog.

Talk to Bob Luder about the KU program. He quit as well.

He seperated Timmons the Coach and Timmons the person in an excellent article in the KC Star in 1991.

I have seen the many good things that Timmons has done. He built a world class cross country course, well, all of you that stayed built the KU course. Perhaps a book should be writtten on that story. It would be a great read. Or a book from all the wonderful stories that his athletes that this story provoked. It's a bad story, make something good from it Craig.

Mike Sharp

Drewr wrote:

I thought you all would be interested in reading dad's reply to Runner's World.

...

"Cliff Cushman, a KU great, silver medalist at 400 meters in the 1960 Rome Olympics..."

Actually that was the 400m *hurdles*. Terrific athlete!

lease wrote:

...

"Cliff Cushman, a KU great, silver medalist at 400 meters hurdles in the 1960 Rome Olympics..."

If I recall my Kansas Relays history. They named the event after Cushman, who died in Viet Nam, when his plane went down.

you bring out a good point here that has gone unsaid.

Bob Timmons also did more for the Kansas Relays than any other individual in its 80+ year history. I lived in Lawrence for decades and know that Timmons held that meet together with not much more than his own effort, creativity and stubborn will.

Say what you will about Bob Timmons, but neither the track team nor the Kansas Relays have matched what he accomplished since he left KU 20 years ago.

Drew- I went to church with you and your family in January 1982 when I first came to KU and didn't know many people.

I also was paid by your parents to help flatten the ground for the foundation to be poured on your home that same spring.

I remember you and your brother and sisters well. I have ordered your dad's recent books from Amazon last week and look forward to reading them.

I am so glad that your and your siblings lives have turned out so well for you all.

You and your brother were 7 at the time and I don't expect you to remember me.

Like I wrote to Craig, perhaps it could be you and your family that write a book about Timmie or the development of the KU cross country course. Again, the article in RW is a poor tribute to Timmie but something good can come from the reactions that it has porvoked.

Best wishes to you and your family.

Mike Sharp

Mike,

I entered KU as a freshman, I was not a transfer student. I was also far from "best" runner on the team as you remember. Timmie beleived in me at times when I doubted myself, his guidance enabled me to succeed not only on the track, but in life.

Since the publication of this article about Timmie, I have spoken to many of my former teammates. The thing that you will never understand or appreciate is the impact a man like Coach Timmons had on our lives. You mention your best times, what could have been if only things had been different. When I spoke to my teammates we didn't talk about our past races, pr's, Big 8 or National Championships. We talked about how lucky we were to run at KU and be a part of a great team. How much of a positive impact Timmie had on our future lives, how we are better Fathers, Husbands, Coaches etc.. as a result of being part of the KU program.

Coach Timmons had high expectations, we trained hard - but we also had alot of fun and have liftime's worth of great memories.

I am trying not to turn this into a personal attack on you or the others that are critical of Coach's career. But perhaps the most important lesson we learned from Timmie was to never QUIT. We are competitiors and will battle to the end. I am confident that if you wouldn't have quit your pr's would probably be quite a bit better. To be brutally honest your pr's are not a the DI level. There is a big difference running in a fun run vs. a championship meet.

Your view will never change it sounds like you have had an axe to grind ever since you quit a workout and climbed into Timmie's truck while the rest of the team hung in and finished. Those of us who gave our best every day, encouraged and supported each other when the workouts were tough or when we weren't having a good day will never understand the mentality of someone who quits and blames other for his failures. In the same way you will never know what it was like to be part of a great TEAM led by a great Coach - Bob Timmons.

I was a Big 8 fan as a kid living in Salina in the mid 1970s, running junior high track. I followed the programs at KU and K State fairly closely and went to both the Jayhawk Camp and then the Wildcat Camp in the summers in 9th and 10th grade. Yes, there were a few bright spots on the distance squads in the 70s but for the most part it seemed like Lawrence was the place that top high school recruits went to disappear. That is not a reflection of whether Bob Timmons was a good man, a decent human being or taught alot of life lessons that are appreciated today-but simply the bottom line. Kansas State did much better in the 70s from the 1/2 mile on up for the most part with the recruits they got. (no, I didn't go to either school; not quite fast enough, but went to Fort Hays State).

I had thought that you were the best runner on the team. I no longer have the media guides but, I might have confused you with someone else. I do remember your name though.

No my times were not Div 1, but they would have helped make the team better. Again, try running those times after getting hit by a car 2 years before. Now I am on full disability because of those injuries and after 14 surgeries over the past 20 years.

I did not quit and get in the truck before the workout was finished on my short stay with the team as you suggested.

I ran hard everyday in every workout. After two weeks, I was sick and so tired that I couldn't go to class.

There was a huge difference btween me and Brent Steiner. We ran together often in the summer of 1984. I had an ability to surge better than he did but he could maintain a pace, much better than I could. I was a rabbit for races at the University of Oregon the summer of 1983. I know full well that I was not div 1. I would run all out 1200 in 3:05 and 10k runners would sit on my shoulder until then and destroy me in a heartbeat at that point. I just had to watch the race from that point.

I assume that you were on the team with Fred Lewis or was he there the semester before? There was a big fallout in 1985 (udk may 1985). Also, from 1983 to 1984 67% of the non-seniors did not return to the team and 76% of the entire team. I think that was one of the reasons why Roger Bowen was fired (philosophical diferences as termed in the UDK). The recruits from those last few years did not last long. I have heard that before Timmons had a stroke in the winter of 1981, he was very organized, afterwards much changed in him I have been told.He had been organized to a T and after the stroke, he was a disorganized mess.

I had no axe to grind. I saw a championship team in 1982 and then in 1984 (?) finnish in last place, maybe 1985.

Timmie spoke of losing many great seniors from that year but it was also the depth that he lost and that is what I was trying to explain to him then. He wouldn't listen. I saw what was happening, the assistant coaches saw it as well and wrote a memo to Timmie with the problems they saw in 1981. Nothing ever changed even when Timmie said that he would individualize workouts in 1973 T&F News Interview and 1985 May UDK article. He kept pounding out the same workouts from 20 years before and losing many athletes.

You were at KU during the downnfall, you explain it then?

I really was done with running from the race in the photo of me. It was not about KU, it was about getting my body back after the accident, something the 91 year old took from me. I had tied the Kansas State Champion in my first time trial on my bike and had just been asked to join (sponsored) a cycling team the week before I got hit.

After 1983, my shoulder would pop out of place anytime that I ran hard. It started with the 1984 KU Relays 10k road run and never stopped after that, even through 3 shoulder shurgeries and the last, shoulder reconstruction. In that last racec, I at least proved that I belonged. The Maupintour Fall Classic was a tough course with world class runners in it. It was not, as you say, a fun run. 29:24 was the winning time in 1984 and I think that is the fastest ever in Kansas soil. Maupintour brought in Athletics West and Rebok, and many other teams to that race. I beat 7 NAIA or NJCAA All_Americans and 2 1984 Olympic trials qualifiers in that race.

I loved KU Track then and will always be a fan. Timmie attacked me, after he found out I went through all his KU files (I did so with Jim Ryun while he was writing his book) in the Spencer LIbrary. They were not closed to the public until 1986 and I had been gone from KU a year and had not looked at his research since 1984. He was offended and threatened legal action against me, even tough they were open to the public at the time I looked at them.

He was parinoid and afraid of any confrontation, or a better term, rebellion (example -fred Lewis). I guess promises had been made to athletes if they performed well in the Big 8, they did and got no more scholarship money as promised. That is what I was told by Fred Lewis and several other athletes, mostly sprinters and jumpers.

I am glad that Timmons had a great impact on all your lives, again, I try switch the bad to a positive. Get your teamates together and their quotes about that impact and publish a book ASAP. Bring something good from a bad article and don't just talk about it. Maybe this article brought old teamates togeher. Then write about those good times while Timmie and Pat are still with us.

Mike Sharp

For someone who claimed he wanted nothing more to do with this controversy on his RW post, Mike Sharp sure seems determined to keep this thing alive.

BTW... Steiner tells me he barely knows you. Give it a rest.

Jayhawk wrote:

For someone who claimed he wanted nothing more to do with this controversy on his RW post, Mike Sharp sure seems determined to keep this thing alive.

BTW... Steiner tells me he barely knows you. Give it a rest.

Brent and I ran together 26 years ago after he had knee surgery and have seen each other a few times in the past 20 years, so no, we are not close. All I said was, we had the same sensitiviy to high intensity and high mileage. Brent evaluated my training in 1983-1985 and he knew what I did was similar to the Galloway Method. I knew what he went through at KU because I was there at the time with him and we spoke a lot when I wrote my thesis but not much since then.

Thanks for cheking up on me John.

I'm not going to let people say things about me that are not true without defending myself. So,John, you are the one that spread my name all over the running blogs. I will keep defending myself as long as people keep saying untrue things about me.

From what I have read on this thread, Jayhawk does NOT defend the Timmons training plan (for 80% of the runners), either. He didn't think it worked for himself or most others either. I think he is just defending Timmons the person and his dedication to the sport and the kids. So I think you 2 agree on more than you realize.

btw...Galloway ran 140-160 mpw with Shorter and Bachelor in his run up to the 1972 Olympics. Much of it at altitude.

big fan of KU track from long ago. i remember watcke. did donnie anderson come after you by a bit?

neutral 3rd party.. wrote:

From what I have read on this thread, Jayhawk does NOT defend the Timmons training plan (for 80% of the runners), either. He didn't think it worked for himself or most others either. I think he is just defending Timmons the person and his dedication to the sport and the kids. So I think you 2 agree on more than you realize.

btw...Galloway ran 140-160 mpw with Shorter and Bachelor in his run up to the 1972 Olympics. Much of it at altitude.

In galloways book, he does not recommend mega high mileage if I recall.

my training was never even. I went on like 6 weeks of high mileage one week and lower and lower for the next five and then repeat. I recall that is what Galloway recommended.

Maybe I am wrong. I am on morphine and that was 25 years ago.

Also, I agree with you. I said over and over, that I seperate Timmons the coach and timmons the individual. If possible, I would love to sit down with him today for a chat. For the past 20 years we have had no disagreements.

He even wrote me about 8 years ago telling me that he thought that we were very much alike and research wise, I totally agree. His office looks like my office, with thousands of articles everywhere. We both are very through.

I don't understand so many of his actions as a coach and I never will. I disagree with how he treated so many of his athletes not even mentioning his workout methods. I understand him wanting to win. I understand him want Cliff Wiley to run in lots of events because he was the most talented. I don't understand him going to his mother's home and threatening to take away his scholarship.

I had a long talk with a coach that knows timmie well the other day and he explained to me Timmons side and really all coaches side and I understand a little better but I feel so bad that he put Cliff's mother through that. That is what I don't understand about Timmons.

I ran against Brent Steiner in high school and summer meets growing up. I saw how he trained and I saw him injured a lot at KU. I knew that as a competitor, no one came close to his level of stregth and determination. From what I recall, Brent couldn't run a very fast 440 but he could keep up a pace and just waste everyone from the start. It was just like the high school scene in the movie "Without Limits". He had the toughness of Prefontaine. For Timmons to question him on his injuries, I will never understand that. He spent 4 years with him and didn't even begin to know him. That is Brent's quote from 25 years ago.

I seperate that side of him over the past 20 years and what he has done with his life during that time. I see the good he has done and I have said that over and over again.

Jayhawk just doesn't seem to get the message and has choosen to make a personal attack on me and question every thing that I write on 4 different blogs. Why? I told the truth. I was misquoted and the writer changed the story to fit his message.

I was very close to Coach Easton and his wife and I loved the tradition at KU and I will always be a KU track fan. I just wish that I had never tried to run there in 1983 or be interviewed by Ben Paynter.

Again, rather than everyone blog back and fourth, gather together and write a book about Timmie and your cross country course. Take something good from the bad.

I don't think about the elderly driver that almost killed me. I think of the lady that held my head, so that I wouldn't injure my neck anymore than had been already and I think of the nurse that held my hand all night the first night in the hospital. Both have become lifelong friends.

Again, it's not a well written article, but it has brought many athletes together for the first time in a long time, from what I have read. Make this story into your story, about your cross country course where you have risked life and limb, for Timmie and Pat.

Mike Sharp

For Timmons to question him on his injuries, I will never understand that.

believe it, my friend. i had a stress fracture in high school and my foot was hurting more each week from mid april on and the coaches kept telling me it was all in my head til it finally broke open in a meet where i had to be helped off the track and taken to the hospital for a cast and crutches. they were typical old school coaches of those times and it's just the way things were. they were good, hard nosed, no nonsense-traditional value coaches who meant well and were definitely cut out of the same cloth as Coach Timmons, from what I read. those types that went to war and then college in the late 40s and 50s were trying to hold the line against long hair, rule breakers and athletes speaking up too much. it's just the way it was. like others have said, Timmons was no different than many other top coaches of the day who shed runners that couldn't hold up or toe the line, like a tree shedding leaves in the fall. He just had a super high profile due to Archie San Romani, Jim Ryun, an Olympic swimmwer at WE and being head coach at KU. remember, Bill Easton was blamed for ruining Billy Mills at KU.

Let's stick to the facts.

1. Mike Sharp cooperated with Ben Paynter's muck raking article about Coach Bob Timmons.

2. Mike Sharp came out blasting people criticizing him (before I had posted one word anywhere)on the Runner's World website defending himself and continuing his attacks on Timmons, going so far as to call Timmons a criminal.

3. Mike Sharp then posts on Runner's World that he is overwhelmed by all of the attacks on him and vows to stop responding.

4. Mike Sharp starts reading my blog and begins posting threats on posts that have nothing to do with the Timmons article or himself. Not only does he call my home and leave a voice mail telling me he is going to call the FBI, he starts calling my friends to attack them or to apologize for his involvement in the Timmons' article.

5. You bet the morphine is having an impact on your memory!

6. We're all tired of hearing about you getting hit by the old man while you were riding a bicycle. It gets old about the fourth or fifth post. We all get it. It happened 30 years ago. It's time to move on!

Hey Jayhawk...how do we get to your blog...I would be interested in reading it...

KC, just do a Google search for Rinks Ramblings