hey, hey Amby Burfoot

boston flop... wrote:

I ran my worst all out, serious marathon at Boston. The downhill course for the 1st part had my quads dead by the time I got to heartbreak hill. Could hardly lift my legs those last 5 miles; and I was a 215 marathoner, twice on other courses. My quads couldn't handle that course.

boston flop, I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience at Boston. The course can definitely beat you up. Accordingly, I trained on hills for two months prior to Boston, running uphill AND downhill 2X a week. I was lucky in that I was able to survive Boston and manage PRs three years in a row. I went out there a few years later without that specific hill training, and yes those hill were painful. I ran Boston a total of 5 times, and I feel that the course has contributed to lower back (sciatica) problems now that I'm in my early 60s. Great race, but you pay a price!

Tiger's record from 2006 until present is 37 starts 19 Wins.

I understand the basics and the nuances of marathon racing, but I appreciate the refresher.

Generally, your thesis is correct, but it is not "almost any situation".

Please take your golf talk somewhere else. it is an insult to a runners website. i heard him talking today about coming back to his 'sport' after his knee surgery and how tough it was....pleeezzzz

just curious, Steve, what kind of training were you doing leading to that 2:11? You look pretty fluid in the pic in Tom D.'s book. Furthermore, what are you doing now?

Don't be so cliche'.

and don't be so paranoid.

A real athlete would not be intimidated by the existence of other sports.

This is what I'm talking about. Salazar, from the recent Kara goucher article:http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=3677732

Everybody has doubts. You know the old saying, even heroes get scared in the foxhole but they do what they have to do. That is the key to distance running. Just acknowledge that you’re always going to have doubts and fears but you learn to deal with them and push through. If I had understood that as a runner, I would have been a lot better. I always thought I was a big baby, a wimp. Kara’s not scared of her doubts

sodbuster wrote:

just curious, Steve, what kind of training were you doing leading to that 2:11? You look pretty fluid in the pic in Tom D.'s book. Furthermore, what are you doing now?

My training was on the lighter side, 75-95 mpw. Using the Lydiard system used by my friend and mentor Ron Daws, I tried to get the recommended 110-125 mpw, but I just couldn't do it. I either got run down or injured. Like most serious competitors of the day, I worked 40 hours a week (as a hospital orderly), so that may have figured in my inability to put in large mileage numbers. ( Although Bill Rodgers also worked as an orderly in the early years, and he did 120 mpw routinely. Bill, Tom Fleming and others could manage to work and train that much, I couldn't.) My training did include large doses of hills ( Up and Down), followed by several weeks of long intervals ( 10 X Mile, e.g.), and of course, the ubiquitous Sunday long run of 20 to 30 miles. I feel that what I lacked in quantity, I made up for in quality. Ideally you would do both! I was not particularly fast ( compared to Frank Shorter, e.g.), but had a good collegiate career at the U of M (innesota). I was gifted with a pretty efficient style, very well-suited to the Marathon. I also had the benefit of Ron Daws to train with and get advice from!

Today, I am retired from the Running Store business that I was in for 30 years. I still like to "run", but it's not very far or fast. I have no major injuries, except for tightness in lower back and hips....probably as a result of too much racing and training in very light-weight shoes ( Tiger Pintos for those of you old enough to remember!) I still have my pride, so, at age 61, absolutely no thoughts of racing!!! I have great memories, though, of my track and road racing career. They were great times.

Joseph McVeigh wrote:

"In almost any situation where there is more than a small number of possible outcomes -- a marathon, a horse race, ..."

Tiger has lost a LOT more tournaments than he has won -- even when you apply the selection bias of "when he's rolling."

Tiger's record from 2006 until present is 37 starts 19 Wins...

HEY JOE, Do not disappear when I have the stats. Acknowledge your incorrect statement.

Although, after yesterday Tiger is now 19 of 38 tournaments over the last 4 seasons.

Over that same 4-season period the supposedly most competitive marathon in the world, London Marathon, has been won by the same guy (Lel) 3 out of 4 times, and he was second the other time. And the same guy has won Boston all 4 years (Cheruiyot).

Additionally, the supposedly toughest and most competitive RACE of any distance, that being the World Cross Country Championship, is regularly won by the pre-race favorite.

In big races, the big names/favorites often step up.

*You* can "take the field" in almost any situation, but *I* am not going to ingnore the proven commodity because of some tired gamblers cliché. I don’t like rules of thumb.

mplatt wrote:

In big races, the big names/favorites often step up.

I don’t like rules of thumb.

Gracias for the small-sample analysis mplatt. Help a brother out with a tip and tell me which of the Boston favorites will step up this April. Or, does this Boston field not have an 'often steps up' favorite? Let me help you out and others that've questioned Amby's comment that triggered debate here- no, there are no favorites. Boston this year, is made that much a more riveting race due to lack of a clear favorite and from a provincial point of view there's a star on the rise in Ryan Hall.

Smiling Bob wrote:

mplatt wrote:

In big races, the big names/favorites often step up.

I don’t like rules of thumb.

Gracias for the small-sample analysis mplatt. Help a brother out with a tip and tell me which of the Boston favorites will step up this April. Or, does this Boston field not have an 'often steps up' favorite? Let me help you out and others that've questioned Amby's comment that triggered debate here- no, there are no favorites. Boston this year, is made that much a more riveting race due to lack of a clear favorite and from a provincial point of view there's a star on the rise in Ryan Hall.

I am not the one who wrote "in almost any situation".

I agree that in many situations there is not a clear favorite, but in many situations there is a clear favorite, and many times they do come throug.

The last 4 years is not a small sample when concerning Golf, And the two most competitive races in the world, and Boston.

I wasn't arguing or even discussing Amby's statement, just Joes. But if you want my theory on Ryan Hall:

I think someone of his ability has to be standing on the starting line absolutely thinking that it could be his day. You have to be prepared for anything, that includes having a great day. I think Hall is the kind of Kid that is not afraid to win. I would not be one bit surprised if he wins.

Steve, thanks so much for taking the time to contribute here. Just last night I finished reading Bill Rodgers' Marathoning, so it's fun for me to read an account of '75 from another athlete's perspective. It seems that every time I hear about Rodgers people marvel at how easy he ran - light footstrikes, looking around, like you describe. He writes about that particular Boston and how he became annoyed that people were cheering for Drayton (a Canadian) while he had "GBTC" on his jersey and couldn't get any attention.

Also pretty neat to get a perspective from Rodgers about Amby Burfoot, who really looks more and more like a pioneer in terms of his approach to the sport. It takes a special kind of person to come up with the idea all on their own to just run incredible mileage to accomplish a single goal (Boston) when nobody around knows the science of it or if it will work. Up to 35 miles on some long runs? My God...

thanx much for the info... truly amazing the double careers you guys in the upper echelon of competition had to juggle in the 70s. Gotta recognize and admire the work ethic. (I'd have to question "...not particularly fast..." though, w/ a 2:11 on 75-95 a week - definitely beyond my reach.) I do remember your MN cohorts of the 70s. Every time you'd pick up a RW they'd be something on somebody from MN. At 58, I'm still both impressed and influenced by runners and races from the 70s. I enjoyed my own mediocre involvement, and the thoughts still get me out the door. (Pintos: definitely a Lydiard-type shoe, right? Socks for the feet.)

mplatt wrote:

I am not the one who wrote "in almost any situation".

I agree that in many situations there is not a clear favorite, but in many situations there is a clear favorite, and many times they do come throug.

The last 4 years is not a small sample when concerning Golf, And the two most competitive races in the world, and Boston.

I wasn't arguing or even discussing Amby's statement, just Joes.

mplatt, there seems to something about 'almost any' you aren't grasping in Joe's comment. Seems to me you gloss over what 'almost any' means and go right for samples to suit your argument. Small samples. We could go from sport to sport and find a number of samples to fit your model but many, many more that'd fit Joe's.

Your take on Ryan's chances at Boston are on the mark.

mplatt wrote:

I think Hall is the kind of Kid that is not afraid to win.

The way he ran in Beijing says otherwise. He could breakaway against fellow Americans in Houston and NYC, but found out in London that that wouldn't work against top Africans. I'm really interested to see what race tactics he'll employ in Boston, whether he'll sit back like he did in Beijing or get back to challenging at the front in the second half like he did in NYC.

Steve, I enjoyed your posts. I always do.

AK, didn't Amby's approach begin with young John?

Incidentally, Amby passed me twice in Boston in 1967. I remember that he was moving very well the second time. I guess that he had just had a bit of a rest.

[quote]OrvilleAtkins wrote:

Steve, I enjoyed your posts. I always do.

AK, didn't Amby's approach begin with young John?

Incidentally, Amby passed me twice in Boston in 1967. I remember that he was moving very well the second time. I guess that he had just had a bit of a rest.[/quote

i believe amby suffered from "the apple jelly incident" thus his reason to pass you twice in that race.

speaking for a few friends, we always enjoy your posts orville. you are a gift to many of us on LetsRun.

the guy who sent you the jim beatty/mihaly igloi article a couple years ago

boston flop... wrote:

I ran my worst all out, serious marathon at Boston. The downhill course for the 1st part had my quads dead by the time I got to heartbreak hill. Could hardly lift my legs those last 5 miles; and I was a 215 marathoner, twice on other courses. My quads couldn't handle that course.

Don't feel bad. I've tried 5 times and I've flopped miserably every time, never within 10 minutes of my marathon PR (admittedly far slower than 2:15). I live in the area, train on the course, get in the right mileage, hit the hills, etc but Boston just owns me.

Thank you for that article guy. I have used it for reference material.

I have made a lot of friends through letsrun and the computer. They have brought great fun to my retirement.

Salsa Snack wrote:

mplatt wrote:

I think Hall is the kind of Kid that is not afraid to win.

The way he ran in Beijing says otherwise.

Yet those who chased Wanjiru suffered big-time. We could argue forever about what would've happened had Ryan gone with Wanjiru & the others early. That's what they do on talk sports radio. Lots of speculation, some of it might be informed. Either way, it's all speculation.

Simply, weather was a decisive factor in the plans and fortunes of many in Beijing.