Cathal Lombard, former EPO guy returns with good result

I wasn't aware of these cases.

Do you think some kenyans/ethiopians might be doped?

ghost wrote:

I knew a guy in France of Algerian descent who took EPO and improved from 32:00 to 29:04.

Doesn't this contradict your argument that a big help to Lombard's improvement was his revamped training and not just the EPO?

Doesn't it also contradict your belief that he will run quite fast now that he is no longer cheating?

Asterix wrote:

ghost wrote:

I knew a guy in France of Algerian descent who took EPO and improved from 32:00 to 29:04.

Doesn't this contradict your argument that a big help to Lombard's improvement was his revamped training and not just the EPO?

Doesn't it also contradict your belief that he will run quite fast now that he is no longer cheating?

This wasnt me that posted this...but it wouldnt contradict me all the same !

I am the one that said that Cathal Lombard could dip slightly under 29'clean but said that he would never in a million years run a 27'45 without the juice as somebody suggested (in saying there was only a 15 sec. gain for 10k).

I said that the 2 french guys were similar athletes to Lombard and improved the same.

Indeed juiced Zoubaa who ran 13'11 is a similar performance, maybe a bit cr@per, to lombards 27'30 & the french guy ran about 13'40 clean which I also think Lombard could have done down the road. 13'40, 28 high are similar enough.

Makes sense to you ? No contradiction whatsover.

I never said he was a 27 high or 30' clean, I always said he was in between...

Nicely

I dont buy it wrote:

This wasnt me that posted this...

Coincidentally, that wasn't you that Asterix was replying to.

Geez,

I guess I missed the EPO window. I was a 14:20, 29:54, and 23:58 road five mile guy. I could have done a lot with a little EPO (or maybe an altitude tent from ebay). But now I am 44 and slower than I was in my prime.

I would have denied-denied-denied like all the good cheats do.

ghost, are you freaking kidding me? Nice apologist post. I cannot believe you are such a jackass!

The guy improved a lot, but we don't know when he started using EPO. He had gone to Albuquerque several times (late 96-98) and he was improving without EPO before he took EPO. He stayed in rented rooms from the Hellebuyk family.

On another note, some of the French arab athletes got in trouble in Albuquerque for going to prostitution places and creating a scandal there.

When he got down to 30:30 for 10,000 (from 32:00) that was over a period of two years, and I think it was natural progression without EPO, but then his real improvement became swifter following several training camps in the U.S. in Albuquerque, in the company of athletes like Benoit Zwierchleski (2:06/marathon) and several other athletes, mostly of North African descent. He was, of course, training harder, and had joined a famous club in Marseille, which had a lot of elite athletes, including Abdellah Behar (13:16/27:40/2:09) - not saying any comment about Behar, as we have no reason to believe he took stuff. Other athletes were under suspicion, but continued to run for the club.

Even Mohammed Essaid, from Grenoble, who got down to 13:03 - we believe he is clean, and he comes from a very honest muslim family - his brother runs in Normandy. They have both sworn on the Koran and their mothers' heads that they have never used illegal stuff. When muslims swear on the heads of their mother, that means they are being truthful, or so they claim. Every time I have spoken with muslim runners, and they say 'wa allah' it means something very serious. I had little reason to disbelieve them, but some posters here will think I am being naive. But I am with muslims every day, and can read them.....better than most western runners. Of course, no proof which is 100%.

Several female athletes who were suddenly running around 32:30-33:00 were also found suspect, and a couple of them were busted in later years, but they always came back. France, although strict on these matters, recognizes that once a runner has done his/her time, there is no legal reason to impede their renewal of career and licence to run. Anglo saxons have a much stricter outlook in that regard, and the offending runner would find it hard to find a club - not so in France.

Going back to the French arab runner (32:00 to 29:00, but really 30:30 to 29:00, we think) - So his real improvement with EPO was probably not more than 60 seconds. He also got down to 13:56 for 5000, and his previous 'normal' times in previous two years was around 14:30. It was a huge jump. What we are not certain about is when he started taking EPO, and when he stopped. Also, just like Lombard, he was on track for solid improvement anyway.

Ghost in Korea

www.gifle.go.kr

(apply now, good conditions)

Ghost could you tell me who that french athlete was if I gave you a private mail ?

Thanks

ghost wrote:

Even Mohammed Essaid, from Grenoble, who got down to 13:03 - we believe he is clean, and he comes from a very honest muslim family - his brother runs in Normandy. They have both sworn on the Koran and their mothers' heads that they have never used illegal stuff. When muslims swear on the heads of their mother, that means they are being truthful, or so they claim. Every time I have spoken with muslim runners, and they say 'wa allah' it means something very serious. I had little reason to disbelieve them, but some posters here will think I am being naive. But I am with muslims every day, and can read them.....better than most western runners. Of course, no proof which is 100%.

This paragraph seems right out of left field.

"we believe he is clean" - who is "we"? You and Cathal Lombard?

"When muslims swear on the heads of their mother, that means they are being truthful, or so they claim." - If they swore (on the heads of their mothers) they were compulsive liars, would you believe them? Should we disbelieve anything a muslim says if they don't swear on the head of their mother?

"I am with muslims every day" - I thought you were in Korea, previously Japan and before that Korea (and Canada before that and Taiwan before that). Are there a lot of muslims you are with every day in those places?

Ghost also as I got to meet a lot of Muslim athletes my general thought is not that the ones that constantly swear on the Coran or on Allah that can be seen as true believers. By experience its the ones a bit more discret about religion, that are the most honest believers & genuine people. Them would only mention the name of God, as you said, for serious matters.

Some who brag about being good Muslims bla bla are sometimes just saying that as a rejection of Western civilisation & they could be the ones going to Hoookers in Albuquerque & elsewhere. Id agree with you on the Behar/Essaid range, allthough the later hanged a bit arould that El Idrissi coach guy, that I am sure you know.

But thats my own experience, youve got your own.

Id be happy to discuss that in mail!

ghost wrote:

The guy improved a lot, but we don't know when he started using EPO. He had gone to Albuquerque several times (late 96-98) and he was improving without EPO before he took EPO. He stayed in rented rooms from the Hellebuyk family.

(...)but then his real improvement became swifter following several training camps in the U.S. in Albuquerque, in the company of athletes like Benoit Zwierchleski

Honestly, this is intended as satire, right? As an indication that he was improving without EPO, you're listing training stints with the Hellebuyks and Benoit Z?! (You're presumably aware that Eddy Hellebuyk and one of the athletes he coached both tested positive for EPO, and you've previously indicated that you're aware that Benoit Z also tested positive.)

I certainly don't convict people on the basis of guilt by association, but to use Lombard's links with Eddy and Benoit as support for his ability to run fast without drugs suggests that you're either pulling our legs, or live in a fantasy world.

ghost wrote:

He had gone to Albuquerque several times (late 96-98) and he was improving without EPO before he took EPO. He stayed in rented rooms from the Hellebuyk family.

Ghost in Korea

http://www.gifle.go.kr

(apply now, good conditions)

No GIANT red flag there, eh?

he wasnt talking about Lombard there but the french Moroccon guy that went from 32' to 29'04...

Also Benoit Z never got caught for Drugs or tested positive, he was linked to some drug bust but the charges were droped. Thats just for the record because I bleieve he was on the Juice when he ran that 2 06 while laughing in the last mile & jumping around like a spotty Teenage bird in front of Justin Timberlake.

He is huge talent though, 13'40ish 5k & 28'30 10k as a Junior & did double Gold 5K/10K at Euro Juniors but 2h06 so easily on a hard enough Marathon while having shown little improvement since the Junior ranks come on like !

mopak wrote:

Controlled tests amongst a group of 31-32min types showed EPO improved their times (10k) by 15-25secs on average. One would think it would be less than that with elite runners maybe 10-15 secs. I believe blood boosting produced about the same improvement. Blood boosting was not outlawed until more recent times and it was thought many elite runners of the 70s and 80s used it.

Bullshit. Controlled studies in the 80s showed blood doping (using relatively small amounts of blood) lowered 3 mile times in trained athletes by @30 seconds, on average. EPO is usually used to boost hematocrit in runners by over 10 points---far more than you'd get normally via autologous blood doping.

Lombard won easily from Cragg in the Irish national Senior cross country today, looked easy. Hmm!

Photographs of his victory - http://www.annadalestriders.co.uk/IrelandXC/