Jeff Nelson and Gerry Lindgren, former prep record holders weigh in-MORE MILES

Gerry, thanks for your post. Anyone can see that it is heartfelt. But I think you are dancing around an important question: Is it a good idea for high school runners to train the way you are advocating?

Even you seem to acknowledge that you paid a price in terms of late-career performance. Your victory as a teenager against the Russians in the L.A. Coliseum in 1965 and your string of NCAA cross country championships, among other achievements, were an inspiration to a whole generation of young runners. You, along with Jim Ryun, Frank Shorter, and Marty Liquori, helped trigger the running boom that began around 1976.

That was a wonderful thing for our society. But the fearlessness that you are talking about might have diminished your later career. I think the dare-to-be-great philosophy that you are advocating needs to come with a warning, which would be that burnout through overtraining can cut short your progress at an early age.

Look at the development of Rob DeCastella and Steve Moneghetti. They probably had less natural talent than you did. But because they increased their training according to what they could handle, they ultimately ran faster than you did. They were probably blessed with experienced coaches who knew how to develop their talent.

You seem to be saying that runners are limited mainly by fear. But that's probably because you never had to think about your natural ability. You had more of it than just about anyone before or since. And based on what I've read over the past 40 years, I've always had the impression that you were oblivious to the role that your natural talent played in your success.

I'll always think of your career in terms of what could have been. Had you trained less like a maniac in high school and college, you might have been the first man to break 13:00 in the 5,000.

unless a runner improves every year from 16 to 30; hits their pr, then retires, then they are all failures in your eyes; burnouts who should have done more, later. So I guess you would feel better about Lindgren and Ryun, if they would have hit their prs when they were 28 years old? Who cares, what does it matter? Did you hit new prs every year until you were 30? I doubt it.

Living in the Past = disgruntled loser who gets his kicks tearing down American distance legends. Always focusing on the negative.

What, are you guys bitter that I didn't include Pre in the group that helped trigger the running boom? Okay, so it was Pre, Shorter, Ryun, Gerry, Marty, and Kardong. And maybe Billy Mills and Bob Schul, although they might have been on the scene too early.

Seriously, though, this thread is about high-mileage training for high school runners. I have my viewpoints on the matter. And part of it is based on Lindgren's career. Think about high school sophomores who might be reading this thread. It's important to point out that extreme mileage comes at a cost. High school runners need to understand that simply daring to be great is not a substitute for having once-in-a-generation talent.

Anyway fellows, go ahead and continue with your attacks on my motives. I enjoy reading them for their entertainment value.

GerryJogger wrote:

I still have dreams. I still have things to accomplish in my life that will affect life for other people. I want to live 300 years. If one person can hang on for 300 years other people will know they don't have to assume death at 57 or even 87 years old. If I can live 300 years humans will start living 500 and even 1000 years. When the Gods created man he was given 1000 years. Methusala lived 984 years. Somebody has to do it first to show the way. I hope to be that person. Think of the problems. In a world that is geared to retirement at 67 and death before 100, there is a person living 3X that long. Big difficulties! But someone has to go through the hard times so times will be eaier for people later on.

Look I know Gerry Lindgren posts on this forum and goes by the handle Gerry the Jogger and the guy is eccentric and all but is this serious? It sounds like troll bait to me? Was this really Gerry or did "GerryJogger" assume identity for the beautiful piece of posting?

Look I know Gerry Lindgren posts on this forum and goes by the handle Gerry the Jogger and the guy is eccentric and all but is this serious? It sounds like troll bait to me? Was this really Gerry or did "GerryJogger" assume identity for the beautiful piece of posting?[/quote]

no, it is the real Gerry Lindgren, distance legend and icon/hero to my generation. Yes, he does use hyperbole and exaggeration to make his points about not letting a doubting mind/attitude, rule your life. You have to realize that, or some of it does sound kooky. He is basically trying to tell us to 'dream big and don't let negative thinking by yourself or others limit what you can accomplish in running or life.'

I think you have a point. But I disagree. I think Gerry's talent was in unreal, almost unhuman ability to convince him to run the mileage/workouts he did (his work ethic towards running and his body's ability to accomodate it). That talent of his might be historic, hardly possible to ever be matched again. But in terms of basic talent, speed etc? No way. He ran some like 2:30 660 in ninth grade. There are ninth graders who run 2:30 for the 1000!!

Thanks for posting Gerry. Inspiring words.

[quote]Living in the Past wrote:

I'll always think of your career in terms of what could have been. Had you trained less like a maniac in high school and college, you might have been the first man to break 13:00 in the 5,000.

see, that's your problem; always focusing on the negative, not on what they actually accomplished at whatever age it might have been. I suggest you check into Glen Turner Enterprises to change your negative focus in life to a 'can do' positive attitude.

he is the real deal wrote:

no, it is the real Gerry Lindgren, distance legend and icon/hero to my generation. Yes, he does use hyperbole and exaggeration to make his points about not letting a doubting mind/attitude, rule your life. You have to realize that, or some of it does sound kooky. He is basically trying to tell us to 'dream big and don't let negative thinking by yourself or others limit what you can accomplish in running or life.'

As a runner, Gerry is one of my heroes too. And I get the whole free your mind Neo stuff. But, this idea is beyond kooky. This is well past borderline mania and virtually institutional mania. If the poster really believes that if he can cheat death until he is 300, then he will open the door to man living to be 1000 again, he is a bad historian and probably manic.

[As a runner, Gerry is one of my heroes too. And I get the whole free your mind Neo stuff. But, this idea is beyond kooky. This is well past borderline mania and virtually institutional mania. If the poster really believes that if he can cheat death until he is 300, then he will open the door to man living to be 1000 again, he is a bad historian and probably manic.[/quote]

C'mon, get serious. If YOU believe that is was being 100% factual and not theoretical, then it is YOU that needs to keep an eye out for the men in the white suits and butterfly nets.

bow down to the runt.... wrote:

[quote]Living in the Past wrote:

I'll always think of your career in terms of what could have been. Had you trained less like a maniac in high school and college, you might have been the first man to break 13:00 in the 5,000.

see, that's your problem; always focusing on the negative, not on what they actually accomplished at whatever age it might have been. I suggest you check into Glen Turner Enterprises to change your negative focus in life to a 'can do' positive attitude.

God, I'm glad someone on here has a sense of humor. So tell me, where can I contact Glen Turner? I would like to pay him some money so that I can learn to see the positive and will my way to greatness.

newyork1 wrote:

I think you have a point. But I disagree. I think Gerry's talent was in unreal, almost unhuman ability to convince him to run the mileage/workouts he did (his work ethic towards running and his body's ability to accomodate it). That talent of his might be historic, hardly possible to ever be matched again. But in terms of basic talent, speed etc? No way. He ran some like 2:30 660 in ninth grade. There are ninth graders who run 2:30 for the 1000!!

I think his time was a 2:30 880yard, not a 660.

NO! living in the past, It is wrong to assume I or Jeff Nelson either were born with some sort of genetic character that could make us run well. The only time genetics come into play is AFTER the deed has been done. It is an ad-hoc-ergos-propler-hoc logic that simply does not exist. You are looking back at what was accomplished and deducting from it what must have existed.

I want you to know that I personally was a basket-case genetically. 105 resting heart rate; Oxygen uptake at 4.8l;I was excused from all excertion in PE. By 1968 my resting heart rate was 38 and oxygen uptake was at 7.8l. But inbetween those years there was a lot of hard work that went into it.

As for the running revolution, I think it was beginning in the late '60s and early 70s. Sort of like California Syndrome, yes?

My message to youth is that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU GOT TILL ITS GONE. There is NOTHING unhealthy or life threatening about running mega-miles. Kenyans and Ethiopians do it every day. Why run under a blanket of fear? When you get older and understand what you used to be able to do, you will reflect back on some amazing skills and abilities that are no longer there. I want to tell youth to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE with your youth rather than cow-tow to a bunch of looser physiologists who simply don't know. In my days too, we had the same types telling us similar horror stories. I was told not to run distances until I was at least 24 years old. Doing long work any younger than that and your heart will slow down. Eventually it will stop and you die. Same fear, different source.

I see so much fear-of-injury logic on these boards that it really makes me angry. The chances of injury is greater in runners who run less milage than it is in runners who run more milage. The only difference in those who run more milage is that halfway through a hard race they have more capacity left in them than runners who run less miles.

And, just for argument, lets suppose there is some sort of long term health risk of running so much (which there is NOT). Would you live in fear rather than use the body you have to benefit track, sports, and the general health of the whole world? What you do as a runner causes determination and heart in others. Are you so important you would sacrefice the good you can do? If I had to do twice the milage I did, suffer untold hardships through life to have had the affect on running that I have had, I would gladly do it all over again. The Gods did not create you to live cowered in selfish fear. You were designed to FLY!

Every athlete has an individual threshold for different amounts and types of training. What works for one person isn't always optimal for another person. A good coach can hone in on what works and make adjustments as the athlete progresses.

How many of us actually reach our absolute limit of potential? Is there any way to know?

http://www.winningrunner.com

well said, Gerry. Tracy would say 'here here' Old man Mooberry would say "uh what?"

Great message. And if you do make it to 300 you'll really have gotten your money's worth on all the money you paid in Social Security taxes.

Thanks for setting me straight, Gerry. I have only myself to blame for not breaking nine minutes for the two mile in high school. Maybe if I had run 250 miles a week as a sophomore instead of 70...

Living in the Past wrote:

Thanks for setting me straight, Gerry. I have only myself to blame for not breaking nine minutes for the two mile in high school. Maybe if I had run 250 miles a week as a sophomore instead of 70...

no, smart ass; you had a loser's attitude; anyone can see that in your posts and you are bitter about your career, which you thought should have been much greater.

Of course, doing the same workouts as a superstar will not have you running like a superstar; heredity plays an important role too; but you can strive to be the best you can be, through hard work whether it is a 9 minute 2 mile or a 10 minute 2 mile.

Let's see....who would I rather listen to for advice and inspiration if I were a runner; Living in the Past or Gerry Lingren?