Pose = crazy???

Jhuffman wrote:

You guy's would make a great COMEDY duo. You guy's should take your act on the road.

I'm glad you're entertained. Maybe this is all just an act on your part and you are relishing our efforts at bringing some proper science and logic into your world.

But if you really are serious and this is the best you can do to counter the very specific critiques made against your proferred methodology, then that is a very clear indication you do not understand what you are trying to explain, quite likely because the whole thing is a house of cards built on hand waving and fancy pseudo-terminology.

Maybe our road show could follow the POSE clinics around. We could go on stage right after you with an act titled "Please ignore that man behind the screen".

Guys!

You are fighting but you should be looking at the running motion.

On push-off: 99% or more of the push-off is at the moment just before you pull up your foot. This push-off is not denied by the pose experts, read my previous post.

My view is they (pose adepts) are emphasizing the quick pull because they want as much as possible to squeeze the push in a very short timeframe. Thereby avoiding the attempt to stretch ankle and knee in a 'late push off' which is useless.

But, the push off is there, leading geb to higher highs on each step. And, geb's knee almost fully stretches but this does not mean he tries to push till the end. His stretched leg has no meaning.

Bottom line, look at the movement without calling it pose or non-pose.

Paul

But push-off is denied by the POSE advocates. Check this exchange on the POSE runing forum as Jack, the certified POSE Coach discusses the mechanics of letting gravity push you uphill.

A reasonable counterpoint is raised:

Well, it was reasonable when suggesting an upward push was required, but the statement that he could see how the downward force of gravity could be converted into an upward vector is, quite frankly, mindboggling.

Jack, who seems to serve as the most enlightened of all posters, comes back with this perfectly clear explanation:

Barrel O' Monkeys wrote:

But push-off is denied by the POSE advocates. Check this exchange on the POSE runing forum as Jack, the certified POSE Coach discusses the mechanics of letting gravity push you uphill.

That is freakin' classic! One couldn't come up with a better proof that POSE is anti-laws of gravity than those quotes.

They really got to submit their 'falling upwards' stuff to the Nobel institute. This would redefine everthing we know about how the world works.

TerryH,

If you have not figured it out yet, I am not trying to convince any skeptic to follow the Pose Technique. I am only concerned with helping those who are interested in learning optimal running efficiency. If someone is skeptical then they need to work this out with the information available to them, which is located at

www.posetech.com

. I don't make money directing people to the posetech website. I send people their because it is a source for a wealth of running knowledge that as been put together for everyone to learn. As with everything in life there will be those who disagree with me but I can live with that. I have a passion for running and love to help others enjoy it as much as I do. Best of luck!

I'm not sure if I have the pose form down correctly, but running on the balls of my feet seems to be helping my shin so far.

"His critique of Geb’s running is virtually a word for word repeat of Dr Romanovs’s “analysis” of a small section from the film “Endurance” in which Geb is seen on a training run"

Hell, if I'll tell you that the Earth is round, will you also tell me that I'm not original?

I think this thread should be put away for good, cuz I see when people are unable to understand the subject, they approach the discussion with "look, your fly is open" mentality. The fact that for numerous people pose works is the said proof in the pudding. One can approach a subject either with a hat of a detective, or with a robe of a judge. The one with the hat wants to know, the one with the judge's robe just gives evaluations. So going on with the thread is like peeing against the wind. Thanks for attention.

You say:

But push-off is denied by the POSE advocates. Check this exchange on the POSE runing forum as Jack, the certified POSE Coach discusses the mechanics of letting gravity push you uphill.

And

Well, it was reasonable when suggesting an upward push was required, but the statement that he could see how the downward force of gravity could be converted into an upward vector is, quite frankly, mindboggling.

I say:

In my post earlier I mentioned a discussion with a pose expert in which I suggested that the command from pose trainers to pull quickly, leads subconsciously to the command 'push harder in order to be able to pull more quickly'. The pose expert said that my interpretation was correct.

So I think in the Pose theory they don't want to emphasize push because it already happens automatically just before the pull. It is NOT denied.

But, some certified 'experts' then erroneously think there is no push and try to invent all kinds of mindboggling enlightened explanations that look awesome but are wrong ("letting gravity push you uphill").

When running uphill you pull your foot but to be able to do that you already have lifted your GCM upward (more than on flat terrain) by means of a short push.

Paul

Jhuffman:

After two pose clinics and almost two years of working on pose I think I have “figured it out”. I believe that there are parts of pose that are right, for example the landing, but I think a lot of it is simply ridiculous and not at all helpful. I also think that this whole method of playing with people’s perceptions by using drills and convincing them that it’s possible to isolate different muscle groups etc is a very hit and miss affair and in my case had disastrous effects. I’m afraid the whole experience has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t actually think that Romanov is a con man. I do believe that that he is sincere in his beliefs, but unfortunately when someone thinks that they have the perfect model and everybody else is wrong, this is potentially a very dangerous situation. The forum on the pose website is a perfect example of this. There is no real discussion, and most enquires are met with: “ In Dr Romanov’s article” or “In the DVD” or “On page …. Of the pose book” etc, etc. I have never managed to get a satisfactory answer to any question I have asked. I’m sure that Dr Romanov didn’t set out to form a cult, but that’s what pose has become whether you like it or not. With the pose method of cycling and the pose method of swimming about to be released the mind absolutely boggles!

Quite frankly the arguments put forward by Asterix and Jimfiore have been a breath of fresh air to me.

Gatorade:

I don’t know what to say to you. You have so comprehensively missed the point I was making. I’ll just leave you to follow your prophet.

Paul:

I take your point but I’m afraid that what you are saying perfectly demonstrates the tortuous and utterly confusing way in which pose is presented. What happened to me time and time again is that they, (that is both Romanov and his followers) would make an assertion that’s defied common sense. I would then challenge this, and only after a great deal of persistence would they eventually say – actually we didn’t mean that, we meant something else. From then on it would just go round and round in circles. Next week they’d be back making the same impossible assertion to somebody else. If it were just a discussion group this sort of thing might be entertaining, but it’s not and this is why people get injured and waste precious and irreplaceable months of training.

TerryH,

It is know suprize that you have had trouble physically with learning the Pose Technique of running. Your thoughts show that you are very confused at how to run. Our minds are in control of our bodies. Until you come to terms with this there will be difficulties with execution. Best of luck!

I am the same as Jhuffman, nobody makes money from the free information on the pose site, and if you go to the forums you will come across vast amounts of imformation, which would enable you to learn pose without buying the book!

for example the following information about kangaroos, and elastic energy, which can produce the upward motion we all seem to be talking about and claiming for a push off with geb!

"Lets start from the beginning. We have muscles, bones, and tendons (for simplicity I'm leaving things out). None of the above mean anything without gravity. Muscles are meaningless mass if you have nothing to apply them to.

Ok, bones give structure to muscles, they give them functions. Muscles have only 2 fucntions - to relax and to contract. Two muscles on either side of a bone give you the ability to push and to pull, depending on which side the muscle is contracting and which muscle is relaxing. Muscles and bones together are limited to their function and can only operate with bodyweight.

Tendons in your body allow you to use the elastic component in your movement. At the point where your movement becomes effiecient, your muscles do nothing more but become a secondary force in your movement. Tendons being the first. Think of it like starting a perpetual motion machine and maintaining its movement. Tendons become the mover as your muscles take on the role of regulating the tendons and maintaining your body position in relation to your body weight.

Here's the catch-22. Your muscles receive commands from the brain to perform a motion, that is voluntary. You go from a state of balance, to a destruction of balance. Your muscles by themselves could not do this. But matched with bodyweight, your entire body now moves forward - with your mucles taking on a role of mainting the destruction of balance, not propelling the body forward through contractions. The second part of this; your tendos are not directly connected to your brain. Your tendons are simply elastic tissue, a rubber band if you will. How do we initiate the use of this rubber band? With our muscles. Sequence is as follows:

Gravity -> Body Mass + Gravity -> Body weight -> with muscles creates destruction of balance (aka movement) -> through the creation of movement we create a circumstance in which our tendons are activated and can play a role in helping us move our body.

All in all, the summary of the catch-22 leaving out many things, is that tendons need muscles, both have to work together for efficient movement.

How does all of this apply to kangaroos? Well, exactly as Clyde said it. Kangaroos lean when they initiate their movement. I don't think there is an argument there.

Following up on what Ruben expressed earlier. Kangaroos do not voluntarily use muscles to propel themselves forward. That is a tricky statement to understand. This goes back to the point of the destruction of balance. At a standstill, your muscles maintain an equilibrium of forces. When you decide to move forward, you use your muscles to shift your body forward, the fact that this may result in a greater ground reaction force is related to the fact that there is motion taking place. Not however, neccisarliy related to the kangaroo actively trying to use its muscles voluntarily to achive forward movement. Broadly speaking, the body moves through the constant destruction of balance, not voluntary muscle propulsion.

Here is how this ties in with the gray kangaroo you mentioned to have leaped 13.5 meters (from my source). It is important to take this figure with consideration of the circumstance. When already in motion as I stated earlier, the tendons take the main role, while the muscles simply maintain and regulate the tendons' use of elatic force. It is known that kangaroo's with their uniquely shaped legs can store up to 97% of the elastic energy as they hop. So when put into context, the kangaroo leans, uses its muslces to maintain this lean and to take its legs off of the ground. Using its muscles to take its feet off of the ground creates a higher ground reaction force because there is some neccesary push off needed to break free from gravity and allow it to pull its legs under its GCM. This push-off happens naturally because the body's GCM has already passed the point of support, so the only thing left to do is to bring the legs back under. This is not nearly the amount of force that is stored in it's tendons when it gets up to speed. So the force responsible for the kangaroos amazing feat of jumping is not its voluntary muscle contractions, but rather its unique ability to utilize it's body's own elastic components in the tendons."

This is a quote,I am not as half as intelligent as the young man that wrote this, so I would never put claim to this information.

I hope you can understand we're not really crazy, just misunderstood most of the time.

LARA the girl who kicks ass! (croft I mean not Me!)

Quote from you:

"...So when put into context, the kangaroo leans, uses its muslces to maintain this lean and to take its legs off of the ground. Using its muscles to take its feet off of the ground creates a higher ground reaction force because there is some neccesary push off needed to break free from gravity and allow it to pull its legs under its GCM. This push-off happens naturally because ..."

There is some necessary push off.

This is all I'm saying! Of course there is elastic activity (not 97% but less in humans running) but also muscle activity.

So pose guys I don't want to see quotes like "There Is No Push Off In Running" any more;-)

Paul

Asterix,

"What is the difference between a single shot picture and one taken from a video?"

The difference is not between single shot pic and a pic form a video. The difference is between a still photo and watching the MOTION frame by frame. Still don't get it? Let me come with an example: even you recognized that every runner regardless of the technique passes the phase of "pose". So you can catch a shot of every runner in "pose", but this would provide you with almost no info about what happened prior to it and after it. The same with Geb's rear knee. It's impossible to "powerfully push off" without passing the phase of straight knee and ankle. If you watch the motion frame by frame, you will see that in his running there is no such phase. While analyzing a single shot picture you can only speculate that the bent knee is "following his powerful push-off", and it's impossible to counter your statement some other way except advising you to watch it in slow motion.

Paul,

the idea of no push off!

Is more the action concept, we are to to think in our brains to pull not push, action concept, you video yourself running, and you will find you are doing things you did not know you were doing. the action is to think what you doing and do it, so you need to practice this, which is called technique training, i.e drills.

All top athletes do drills, club level athletes, go to your local track and you will find, a club training together and doing drills.

So the idead no push off, is not scientific to not push off, as the following quote will explain, ground reaction force gives push off from muscle elasticity, but we do not use the action of push off, as physically pushing away from the ground. and that is why we say to pull not push. For example saying we only use mainly one muscle the hamstring, well, no we use alot of muscles in pose, we need alot of strength to enable a good lean/fall, we do use these muscles but we do not contract them, otherwise those core muscles we are using would make a crunch style sit up in mid air.

The concept and method of pose is simple pull fall pose. it is easier to understand, do any other methods of training technique go into such depth and detail for tennis,swimming etc, I think not.

quote from pose

We don't need to do it by voluntary muscle efforts, all we need to do is to release the elastic property to do the work. While this happens the body is moving (rotating) forward by gravity force. We just need to keep the body geometry (Pose) right to allow gravity lead this movement. What we are still missing is where do our muscular voluntary efforts come in? We need them to keep the body geometry and pull the foot from the ground up, because it is the only part of the body left on the ground and therefore needs to be moved by our own efforts in order to keep up with the running away body.

This happens in the fast and slow run and in moving from the starting blocks in sprinting. It's all the same. Our muscles/ tendons are loading in the faster run more, because of the quicker change in both vertical and horizontal directions. Then our muscles are responding (reacting) to these requests. The primary request is falling forward, but then the change of support comes into play, so we need to remove the body weight from support and after that the foot from the ground. This is the running cycle.

So to sum it all up, there is push off in running, but it happens by itself. Muscular elasticity does it for us and we actually use our voluntary muscular efforts just to hold the body right. That's it. "

lara

Jhuffman,

I am not in the least bit confused with my running. In fact I am very happy with the way in which it's going now. No thanks to the illogogical, ambiguous and misleading "help" from pose. The arrogance implied in your reply speaks volumes. There are other ideas out there and most of them are a lot more interesting and helpful than this dreary old pose dogma.

Happy posing.

Did you know that with the vertical displacement in running by using elastic energy produces a lift of 4-6 cms, above the ground, this happens in between when you change support, (support- which ever foot is on the ground) this data was found in all ranges of speed and distance in elite runners.

Asterix wrote:

Without contrary information, too many people will fall for that schtick. Why do you think you still get emails from Prince Mombasa of Nigeria?

Because he has a very lucrative deal for me, his trusted confidant. He said so himself. All I have to do is act as his agent to get his embezzled funds out of the country and I get 2.3 million US Dollars, of course.

Why else?

Gatorade wrote:

"http://www.sport.be/fotospecial/fotos/2057/bekelegebre.jpg"

Well, if in the last photo you consider the rear knee straight - you need an oculist. Concerning other photos - front view doesn't show much about the subject. In order to understand what I say you should look not the photos, but a motion picture frame by frame.

Not to speak for Asterix but I think it's pretty clear he understands precisely what you say. He just has shown it -- with clear photographic evidence -- to be flat out incorrect.

You said "Watch Geb running frame by frame. See, his rear knee and ankle never straightens." Obviously, his rear knee and ankle DO, in fact, straighten. The first photo alone is enough to show that. That photo is one "frame". Case closed.

Asterix, you've done a great job here with lucid and informative explanations. I think you already know you're never going to convince the people with whom you're arguing. They already drank the cool-aid long ago, it seems. But I understand they're not your target audience. With any luck, a few people will see that the logic here exists on one side of the argument and manage to save themselves from a complete waste of money.

So much fluff and fantasy thought processes. Where to begin?

In case you hadn't noticed, everytime you bring up that site, more samples of crazy POSE-speak are referenced which either are completely off-the-wall or directly contradict supposed explanations brought forth on this and other POSE threads. It really isn't helping your argument to be constantly pointing to that site.

If you can live with such ignorants as Sir Isaac Newton disagreeing with you, then more power to you. However suspension of such fundamental concepts is not healthy for the population as a whole and so I figure it is pretty important that this be highlighted.

You're missing what has been going on. Several people have looked quite closely at the whole POSE religion and found not just open flies, but one-legged pants or t-shirts being worn as shorts. You are ignoring the numerous fundamental flaws (not just superficial details) with the whole methodology.

As for 'proof in the pudding', by what criteria do you use to say POSE works? For some people, simply running injury-free is success. However we've got numerous anecdotal accounts of injury-plagued POSE running.

Others chase high levels of performance, yet we have not seen any world class athlete run full and proper POSE, nor have any endorsed that religion.

Given that numerous cites given either to the POSE site itself or from certified 'experts' such as JHuffman on this forum have professed this erroneous thinking you mention, how is one to determine which are the certified experts and which are only certified 'experts'? How am I or anyone else to know which one you are? Was Fox Mulder correct when he said "trust no one"?

Which is completely untrue if one has ever watched a space walk where astronauts push off from various parts of the space craft.

I don't know if that's meant to be a formula of some kind or secret code, but it certainly makes very little sense.

If that last line is true, then it is rather scary because the quote itself comes off as pretty idiotic.

To suggest that kangaroos build up to 13 meter long leaps simply by leaning and building up stored elastic energy is to espouse a belief in magical energy creation from nothingness.

As bouncy as a superball is, have you ever seen one that achieves a higher height than the one it was originally dropped from? That is what you are suggesting with your kangaroo theory.

Have a look for stories of people who have been kicked by kangaroos (at least those who've survived). They pack one heck of a strong kick and that has nothing to do with leaning forward and storing up elastic energy. It is these powerful leg muscles that propel the kangaroo and enable it to make these world record long jump distances stride after stride.

You're fighting an uphill battle there (try leaning forward and falling uphill, it'll be easier). That line of thinking not only has been used numerous times in this forum by certified 'experts' (or are they actually real certified experts?) but throughout the POSE site. Maybe those folks are really just certified 'experts' as well and shouldn't be taken seriously.

If that shot of Geb and company in mid-flight (with their center of masses siginficantly higher than at rest) bothers you so much, let's just ignore that one. There were several others cited that specifically shot Geb when his leg was fully extended and his ankle fully flexed.

You very specifically said to look at frames to prove that Geb NEVER straightened his leg. That was factually incorrect and telling me to look at frames preceeding that or following that will not change it.

The POSE concept that the 'pose' itself is when the center of mass passes over the point of ground contact is by no means unique to POSE. From the moment they learn to walk, babies pass this pose. Showing pictures or video that Geb or others are in this pose certainly does not prove they run POSE.

But claiming they never straighten their knee when they very obviously do is rather hard to justify since your assertion is so fundamental to what POSE is explained to be (no push-off).

And lastly:

For which I'm sure you can provide a cite?

Back to the superball analogy, if you are claiming that only stored elastic energy is able to lift the center of mass 4 - 6cms, then you are claiming to have discovered 'free energy' or the ability to create energy from nothing.

If we could just strap a generator to a few thousand people running POSE, we could solve our electricity crisis. Use a few million and we'd be able to solve world hunger and throw off the shackles of oil dependance.

Do you realize the magnitude of your discovery? Forget posting on letsrun, get this idea patented and into development and you'll be the saviour of humanity.