I think the response to Cam Hanes and Seth Clevenger show that there's a very strong anti-doping culture in the sub-elite levels of the sport in the US. Among Masters runners, ultra runners, and even all the way up to NCAA D1, the clear majority of athletes are horrified by any PED use.
My fear is they will beat the allegations due to money, connections and power. Max and the Satisfy boys (and probably Molly) are probably connected and likely back Hanes. I think there was an insta with her supporting him.
Based on what? You think 1/6 to 1/3 of runners are buying illegal drugs on the internet to cheat their way to 2:49?
Don't even have to buy them illegally on the internet. Just walk in to a "wellness" clinic near you, say the right thing, fork over some cash, and you can get a shot of high-grade T or even peptides without even a cursory blood test
I know Sage is involved so that may be triggering to a certain # of posters but age group doping is the wild wild west & I'd love to see more people caught. On top of that, the Hanes types are often-times monetizing off of superficial results. That's a problem. & they are taking race slots from some people -- elite entries at local races, seeded start corrals, Boston, etc. I'm in triathlon now & so many wealthy 40+ year olds with money are so obviously taking whatever they can get their hands on, trying to cheat death. They're never going to get tested & some of them will land results that are pro adjacent/take a World Champs slot from a deserving athlete. Sick of it. We're being pedaled more & more every kind of supplement, testosterone, & similar things to try to get people to have a body considered good looking when most of America isn't fit. It's disappointing showing up, even to local races, & not feeling good about who is around you. Easy to say just tune it all out, but some of us want to see where we stack up. Gotta normalize aging/decline in athletics. It's ok to not run your best. Run your best at 40, at 50, at 60, etc.
I may be cynical but I see races looking the other way so they can hit their numbers metrics, and with wealthy Millennial athletes being desperate for clout on social as well...so much for clean sport going forward.
See username. Unfortunately dopping is completely normalized among amateur ultrarunners. A couple of years ago on the ultra- and trail- subbreddits, everbody openely talked about taking antinflammatory drugs or painkillers to reduce perceived effort.
We don't see it as much anymore because redditors caught on to the health risks, but I'm sure it's still extremely common among the general population.
I don't understand how people can be so casual about cheating. Especially that they have nothing to win anyway, which paradoxally is probably what makes them think that it's ok.
Genuinely never thought that ultrarunning would have a doping problem because always thought it was a bunch of older guys running around the woods for the vibes. Like there is so little money in the sport for the average runner beyond some low-level brand ambassador deal, what's the point of looking for an edge.
But now I'm coming around to the idea after some recent observations. There is a local ultra guy I know that more and seems like a poster boy for the ultra doping issues. He's nothing special, occasionally gets top 5 in some races around the state, but recently posted about peptides and IV fluid treatment and other random questionable stuff. Also wore the Adidas Prime X shoes with the illegal stack height at the local road marathon. Like if this dude is seeking some sort of edge to knock a half hour off his 100 mile PR and get 6th place at the Northern State Fall Ultra Festival, I can't imagine he is the only one.
More and more, it seems like ultras are a reason for people to prove how tough they are and gain a social media following, and any shortcuts are fair game to achieve that goal. They somehow justify it to themselves as doing "whatever it takes". Like what happened to just chilling in the woods with other running and nature enthusiasts and taking in the vibes. Now it's all "Look at me! Look at me!" and little else. Guess it's emblematic of our society at large then.
Social media is worse.
I might be wrong but to even follow on to your last paragraph, I think some of them are looking for the huge viral vid that will launch them into fame, open doors and get them $ that allows them to never work a 9-to-5 again, esp. in a failing economy. They are that desperate.
Cam should actually chime in here and be objective. If he cannot get off the stack because his Endo said his endogenous can't recover then apply for a TUE but.make an example and have your result taken out. Road, Trail racing does not currently have an enhanced division only Natural.
This isn't political, diet quit the useless cyber jibber jabber. It's an objective case. What's nice about these forums is the Brojos have encouraged this to be a "locker room" type format where you can just talk not sound off adhering to a brand, slogan, or pod title
Very valid point here, and also love that LRC is fairly moderated, unlike Reddit/r/AdvancedRunning.
Cam might not even know about LRC lol. Or if he did and posted already, I missed it, and that's on me.
Why is Sage such a miserable person? Seems like every year there's another more successful person he launches a tirade against. Around Pike's Peak it's always Matt Carpenter. Before he had a beef with Seth DeMoor. Last year it was the Roaches and Jason Koop. Nick Bare and Kofuzi before that. Attacked a Type 1 diabetic during the Spring Energy debacle. Not it's Cam and Truett. Probably a half dozen more I'm missing.
Congrats on going after Cam, but that's literally going after the lowest of low hanging fruit. Won't make any difference because in the grand scheme of running/ultrarunning, Cam is a nobody and this doesn't actually change any outcomes. If this issue somehow sinks Cam (lol), the next influencer will just keep quite about their PED use. It's like going draconian on a single street-level drug dealer and thinking you are personally responsible for the end of the world's drug issues.
Cam seems like teflon, he doesn't care and he got hi$. I think that is why they are all smug, they have more influence in the sport than Sage (who is awesome).
Although that is a fair point, he did have a beef with SJD for some reason?! I remember that now, but Seth has his own issues he had to deal with and clean up in the world of influencing.
Replying to some post a few pages back referencing the BAA...don't think they care about dopers since they invited one to the expo this year for a treadmill stunt.
Your BAA point reminds me of the Irish Dance scandal...judges being paid off to award prizes to certain competitors due to relationships, etc.
These big corporate orgs. like BAA and the Coco 250 peeps don't care about fairness; they just want their $. And most running public doesn't know about LetsRun anyways, even if there are good people here fighting the good fight.
People defending Cam and the Satisfy boys on social may be average rec runners in the sense they don't know much about the sport or its context but just see him as a "cool influencer." The diehards are on here and Reddit and are willing to go one mo..erm, go further into determining fairness.
Based on what? You think 1/6 to 1/3 of runners are buying illegal drugs on the internet to cheat their way to 2:49?
Don't even have to buy them illegally on the internet. Just walk in to a "wellness" clinic near you, say the right thing, fork over some cash, and you can get a shot of high-grade T or even peptides without even a cursory blood test
Very true, down in Columbus 97.1 The Fan advertises things like Columbus Men's Clinic, the Low-T Center, Men's Wellness Center, etc. Only for $99! Too good to be true, etc. etc.
Replying to some post a few pages back referencing the BAA...don't think they care about dopers since they invited one to the expo this year for a treadmill stunt.
I think this is right. There's barely money for pro drug testing, let alone AG testing. These big race brands have to know that a decent chunk of their revenue dollars are coming from amateurs who are doping. Imagine if Ironman tested every AGer at the World Champs? Boston testing everyone in the top-X of the field? What about Hyrox, which apparently says they conform to WADA. I know someone who does Hyrox who definitely takes T. He's in the influencer space. His body looks "great." He teaches classes, pushes some products, etc. & the sad part is that he's more/less an inspiration to the people around him. The pharmacy race is really becoming a problem. We're constantly told we need to look a certain way & there are an array of products, lots of them illegal in sport, that get promoted to help us get there. Idc if average race times got a little slower if it meant everyone was doing things right. The problem is that people are getting paid to push products that make race fields dirtier, there's no testing, and, subsequently, doped athletes will finish ahead of clean athletes, taking championship slots, age group awards, qualification slots, etc. My guess is that some of those people don't even know that anti-doping rules exist or think it's only for elites. How many hybrid types just jump into road races that are glowing? Some stick with training & start doing well. That's the issue. It's not about anyone's personal feelings about Sage. I know some Eugene people who could've finished a slot higher. It matters to them if they're putting in the work the right way and training hard almost every day.
Jamil (and aravapia) have really shown to be greedy above ethics. Between jerking cam and Eli Wehbe off they have shown they don’t care about clean sports AND they don’t care about predators in the sport. If they bring more attention to a stupid class of events (100+ mile races) it makes them way more money. They don’t pay “volunteers”, they make use of public land and they pal around wiyj people that have no business being in the sport. Now that they are part of the consolidation of trail races into a few for profit companies it’s only gonna get worse.
pro’s can’t speak out because they won’t get a bib and they don’t have to listen regular peolle because more than enough will pay 2000$ to walk in the desert for 3 days
Sabrina Little at iRunFar has published what I found to be a very thoughtful handling of the situation. Does not call out Hanes or Sage by name, but the comments have.
Sports have rules. If you are going to run in an actual marathon, you need to follow whatever the rules are. If that includes not doping, then you can't dope. You're still free to go out and run 26.2 miles down the street according to your own rules any time you want. If you want to do that in a race, you have to follow the race's rules. By the same token, if it's bowhunting season for deer, you can't use a rifle with the excuse that you're are too old and weak to use a bow. Just have some integrity and follow the rules of whatever sport you're engaged in.
I think the response to Cam Hanes and Seth Clevenger show that there's a very strong anti-doping culture in the sub-elite levels of the sport in the US. Among Masters runners, ultra runners, and even all the way up to NCAA D1, the clear majority of athletes are horrified by any PED use.
My fear is they will beat the allegations due to money, connections and power. Max and the Satisfy boys (and probably Molly) are probably connected and likely back Hanes. I think there was an insta with her supporting him.
Ya he'll never get popped, and nothing will actually happen to them. Which is why the greater online space making a stink about this is actually kind of important cause it's literally all that can be done. Makes people think 'Doper' when they see 'Hanes'
Good on Sage for putting himself out there for this and subjecting himself to all the hate and abuse from the fanboys. Doing it for the love of the game
1. No one really cares if you are 55 and taking TRT because you want to feel younger and stronger and run in local turkey trots or even run a 3:00 marathon. Some people might think this is wrong but no one is going to think it is a wrong of serious magnitude. (And also remember that many women and men take hormones because they really do help mental and physical issues after age 50--there are totally legitimate and positive uses for these drugs once you hit a certain age).
2. The problem is when someone is making $ or taking serious age group awards off of their magical fitness at an advanced age. These people are lying.
3. So, the line is pretty clear. Take whatever drugs you want. Enjoy running 7:00 pace in training rather than 8:00 pace, while also being able to bench a lot. But don't steal awards or money from people who are clean.
1. No one really cares if you are 55 and taking TRT because you want to feel younger and stronger and run in local turkey trots or even run a 3:00 marathon. Some people might think this is wrong but no one is going to think it is a wrong of serious magnitude. (And also remember that many women and men take hormones because they really do help mental and physical issues after age 50--there are totally legitimate and positive uses for these drugs once you hit a certain age).
2. The problem is when someone is making $ or taking serious age group awards off of their magical fitness at an advanced age. These people are lying.
3. So, the line is pretty clear. Take whatever drugs you want. Enjoy running 7:00 pace in training rather than 8:00 pace, while also being able to bench a lot. But don't steal awards or money from people who are clean.
Nice idea but all the money is in social media influencing now, and it's the wild west.
"Pro" runners, which is to say sponsored runners, have come to realize their job is glorified influencing. And these dopers have proven to be better at the job than the pros, without the gruelingly optimized training and running talent.
Oh, I agree that you shouldn't also be an influencer and make $ off of your magical old age fitness, when it is really drugs. . . .
On a side note, I think legit runners also get annoyed because all these dudes are jacked and that is pure drugs. Real training and running fitness, without drugs, does not lead to big biceps. Gaunt is beautiful in the words of the sage Quenton Cassiday.