So Nico just magically starts losing to Nike teammates right when Mike Smith is paid by Nike? Not suspicious at all…

Llaoqgghrycggyui wrote:

FBNY2See wrote:

I was actually at the Portland race, and anyone saying Nico was just “just to qualify” wasn’t watching closely. That took everything he had. You don’t let a guy like Parker Wolfe just roll you like that if you’ve got another gear and the race truly doesn’t matter. Nico is one of the fiercest competitors in the sport, there’s zero chance he consciously decided to concede that kind of gap just for fun. If he had more, he would’ve gone with it.

Ok course he wanted to win but I think once the pack of 6 broke away they knew they had made the team. Of course Wolfe (and Hansen)were fitter than Nico. After the trials Wolfe was able to shut down the first week of August. He probably started building in for XC at the end of August. Nico hadn’t even made it to Japan until September and then was there for almost two weeks. Same thing with Graham and then he went back to Japan in October. Both Graham and Nico are at least 6 or 7 weeks behind. Wolfe is insane and am is on par with any of the best distance guys in the USA but you need to understand the importance of training blocks before jumping to conclusions.

Fans are allowed to ask questions wrote:

Llaoqgghrycggyui wrote:

Ok course he wanted to win but I think once the pack of 6 broke away they knew they had made the team. Of course Wolfe (and Hansen)were fitter than Nico. After the trials Wolfe was able to shut down the first week of August. He probably started building in for XC at the end of August. Nico hadn’t even made it to Japan until September and then was there for almost two weeks. Same thing with Graham and then he went back to Japan in October. Both Graham and Nico are at least 6 or 7 weeks behind. Wolfe is insane and am is on par with any of the best distance guys in the USA but you need to understand the importance of training blocks before jumping to conclusions.

It’s totally fair to question the training situation. Wolfe raced through Fifth Ave after Tokyo, so spare me the “behind in training” excuse. And Blanks leaving his coach to train solo in Georgia was a head scratcher too.

Fans are allowed to ask questions wrote:

Llaoqgghrycggyui wrote:

Ok course he wanted to win but I think once the pack of 6 broke away they knew they had made the team. Of course Wolfe (and Hansen)were fitter than Nico. After the trials Wolfe was able to shut down the first week of August. He probably started building in for XC at the end of August. Nico hadn’t even made it to Japan until September and then was there for almost two weeks. Same thing with Graham and then he went back to Japan in October. Both Graham and Nico are at least 6 or 7 weeks behind. Wolfe is insane and am is on par with any of the best distance guys in the USA but you need to understand the importance of training blocks before jumping to conclusions.

It’s totally fair to question the training situation. Wolfe raced through Fifth Ave after Tokyo, so spare me the “behind in training” excuse. And Blanks leaving his coach to train solo in Georgia was a head scratcher too.

RunCoach4Colo wrote:

wellsk wrote:

At the end of the day, who really cares.

Coach is getting paid, his Nike and Adidas athletes are making teams.

If Nico had a problem with this Nike 'setup', don't you think he'd go elsewhere to be trained and coached?

“Who cares” is a lazy argument, you can say that about literally anything in sports. This was the first race Nico has run since fully stepping into this training environment, so obviously nobody’s drawing final conclusions yet. But if this pattern keeps happening, then yeah, hard choices come into play. And we’ve seen this movie before. Grant Fisher left Jerry Schumacher after breaking an American record because the system no longer fit what he needed. What happened next? Olympic medalist in both the 5K and 10K, and two of the greatest distance performances in U.S. history. Elite athletes eventually have to do what’s best for them, not the brand, not the group, not the coach’s payroll. If the setup stops serving Nico, history says the smart ones move. Time will tell this spring and the results that come with it.

adada wrote:

RunCoach4Colo wrote:

“Who cares” is a lazy argument, you can say that about literally anything in sports. This was the first race Nico has run since fully stepping into this training environment, so obviously nobody’s drawing final conclusions yet. But if this pattern keeps happening, then yeah, hard choices come into play. And we’ve seen this movie before. Grant Fisher left Jerry Schumacher after breaking an American record because the system no longer fit what he needed. What happened next? Olympic medalist in both the 5K and 10K, and two of the greatest distance performances in U.S. history. Elite athletes eventually have to do what’s best for them, not the brand, not the group, not the coach’s payroll. If the setup stops serving Nico, history says the smart ones move. Time will tell this spring and the results that come with it.

Explain to me what Nico is doing differently with his training now than before. Be very specific. Is he running different workouts? Has the philosophy changed? Do you know, or are you just guessing? Do you think Nico cares who his training partners are sponsored by? Do you think Smith, who has a long-term and very successful relationship with Nico, is suddenly going to change things up because Nico is sponsored by Adidas and his other athletes are sponsored by Nike? Do you think 5th place at XC Natties after a 6th place in the world champs 5k final 10 weeks earlier is anything other than a solid start to a new season? Do you think this is an issue anywhere other than on this message board?

Ghy784 wrote:

adada wrote:

Explain to me what Nico is doing differently with his training now than before. Be very specific. Is he running different workouts? Has the philosophy changed? Do you know, or are you just guessing? Do you think Nico cares who his training partners are sponsored by? Do you think Smith, who has a long-term and very successful relationship with Nico, is suddenly going to change things up because Nico is sponsored by Adidas and his other athletes are sponsored by Nike? Do you think 5th place at XC Natties after a 6th place in the world champs 5k final 10 weeks earlier is anything other than a solid start to a new season? Do you think this is an issue anywhere other than on this message board?

To second the above the post, last year when Young was very successful he was training with Kincaid (sponsored by Nike), Nur (sponsored by Nike) and Grijalva (sponsored by Hoka). Now he is also training with Wolfe and Strand (sponsored by Nike), and still has the same coach - who now is able to devote all his time to coaching his pro team instead of his college team getting most of his time. What supposedly has changed for the worse for Young since last year? You could argue having Wolfe and Young in the same training group will be detrimental for one of them since they'll be competing for the same teams, but you could also argue they'll push each other to be even better. In any case, I don't understand how what brand of shoes they're wearing would matter.

adada wrote:

RunCoach4Colo wrote:

“Who cares” is a lazy argument, you can say that about literally anything in sports. This was the first race Nico has run since fully stepping into this training environment, so obviously nobody’s drawing final conclusions yet. But if this pattern keeps happening, then yeah, hard choices come into play. And we’ve seen this movie before. Grant Fisher left Jerry Schumacher after breaking an American record because the system no longer fit what he needed. What happened next? Olympic medalist in both the 5K and 10K, and two of the greatest distance performances in U.S. history. Elite athletes eventually have to do what’s best for them, not the brand, not the group, not the coach’s payroll. If the setup stops serving Nico, history says the smart ones move. Time will tell this spring and the results that come with it.

Explain to me what Nico is doing differently with his training now than before. Be very specific. Is he running different workouts? Has the philosophy changed? Do you know, or are you just guessing? Do you think Nico cares who his training partners are sponsored by? Do you think Smith, who has a long-term and very successful relationship with Nico, is suddenly going to change things up because Nico is sponsored by Adidas and his other athletes are sponsored by Nike? Do you think 5th place at XC Natties after a 6th place in the world champs 5k final 10 weeks earlier is anything other than a solid start to a new season? Do you think this is an issue anywhere other than on this message board?

Spitting Nike facts wrote:

Ghy784 wrote:

To second the above the post, last year when Young was very successful he was training with Kincaid (sponsored by Nike), Nur (sponsored by Nike) and Grijalva (sponsored by Hoka). Now he is also training with Wolfe and Strand (sponsored by Nike), and still has the same coach - who now is able to devote all his time to coaching his pro team instead of his college team getting most of his time. What supposedly has changed for the worse for Young since last year? You could argue having Wolfe and Young in the same training group will be detrimental for one of them since they'll be competing for the same teams, but you could also argue they'll push each other to be even better. In any case, I don't understand how what brand of shoes they're wearing would matter.

The idea that “nothing has changed” is simply false. Last year, Young trained in a loosely mixed, unofficial environment with Kincaid (Nike), Nur (Nike), and Grijalva (Hoka), while Smith was still primarily a college coach and not employed by a shoe company, so no single brand’s business interests structurally dictated the training priorities. This year is completely different. Mike Smith is now a Nike employed pro coach, the group is formally a Nike pro team, and the priority is, by definition, Nike athletes first, not Adidas. On top of that, the Grijalva comparison is outdated anyway because Luis hasn’t even been training with this new group due to injury, so this is not some balanced multi brand environment in practice. Whether people like it or not, the athlete brand conflict is now built directly into the structure of the group, and that’s what fundamentally changed for Young. He’s no long the main focus in the training. Athletes like Parker and Strand are too priority if people want to admit it or not. The Nike marketing crew is loving that Nico was irrelevant in the U.S. cross country champs with a 5th place and the Nike runner ( Parker ) dominated

RunCoach4Colo wrote:

adada wrote:

Explain to me what Nico is doing differently with his training now than before. Be very specific. Is he running different workouts? Has the philosophy changed? Do you know, or are you just guessing? Do you think Nico cares who his training partners are sponsored by? Do you think Smith, who has a long-term and very successful relationship with Nico, is suddenly going to change things up because Nico is sponsored by Adidas and his other athletes are sponsored by Nike? Do you think 5th place at XC Natties after a 6th place in the world champs 5k final 10 weeks earlier is anything other than a solid start to a new season? Do you think this is an issue anywhere other than on this message board?

You’re saying the only thing that matters is whether Nico is doing the exact same reps on paper, when the real issue is structural incentive and control, not whether today’s workout is 6×1k or 5×2k. Last year, Smith was a college coach, paid by a university, coaching mostly his former athletes with a few others, with no single brand’s business interests formally in charge. this year, he is a Nike employee, running a Nike pro team, whose explicit job is to make Nike athletes win races, sign contracts, and build brand value. That alone changes the incentive stack, whether people want to admit it or not. You don’t need some cartoon villain moment where Smith “suddenly changes everything” overnight, bias shows up in who races first, who peaks for which meets, who gets protected in training, who gets teammates to pace, and whose long term development is being optimized. And hiding behind “5th at XC Nats after 5th and 6th at Worlds” is a dodge, no one is claiming Nico is washed, the argument is that this setup systematically benefits Nike athletes more than it benefits the one Adidas star in the group, which is a business reality, not a workout sheet conspiracy. The fact that this only gets shouted down on message boards doesn’t make it wrong, it just means people are uncomfortable admitting how pro training groups actually work once shoe company payroll enters the room.

Spitting Nike facts wrote:

The idea that “nothing has changed” is simply false. Last year, Young trained in a loosely mixed, unofficial environment with Kincaid (Nike), Nur (Nike), and Grijalva (Hoka), while Smith was still primarily a college coach and not employed by a shoe company, so no single brand’s business interests structurally dictated the training priorities. This year is completely different. Mike Smith is now a Nike employed pro coach, the group is formally a Nike pro team, and the priority is, by definition, Nike athletes first, not Adidas. On top of that, the Grijalva comparison is outdated anyway because Luis hasn’t even been training with this new group due to injury, so this is not some balanced multi brand environment in practice. Whether people like it or not, the athlete brand conflict is now built directly into the structure of the group, and that’s what fundamentally changed for Young. He’s no long the main focus in the training. Athletes like Parker and Strand are too priority if people want to admit it or not. The Nike marketing crew is loving that Nico was irrelevant in the U.S. cross country champs with a 5th place and the Nike runner ( Parker ) dominated

Ghy784 wrote:

Spitting Nike facts wrote:

The idea that “nothing has changed” is simply false. Last year, Young trained in a loosely mixed, unofficial environment with Kincaid (Nike), Nur (Nike), and Grijalva (Hoka), while Smith was still primarily a college coach and not employed by a shoe company, so no single brand’s business interests structurally dictated the training priorities. This year is completely different. Mike Smith is now a Nike employed pro coach, the group is formally a Nike pro team, and the priority is, by definition, Nike athletes first, not Adidas. On top of that, the Grijalva comparison is outdated anyway because Luis hasn’t even been training with this new group due to injury, so this is not some balanced multi brand environment in practice. Whether people like it or not, the athlete brand conflict is now built directly into the structure of the group, and that’s what fundamentally changed for Young. He’s no long the main focus in the training. Athletes like Parker and Strand are too priority if people want to admit it or not. The Nike marketing crew is loving that Nico was irrelevant in the U.S. cross country champs with a 5th place and the Nike runner ( Parker ) dominated

You say that Young is no longer the main focus in training, but you don't explain why that would be the case. Last year Smith was balancing coaching a college team and coaching a number of pros, why can't he balance coaching just pros this year? Or is your argument that Smith is now deliberately trying to make Young race worse compared to someone like Wolfe? If so, how is he doing that - is he giving Young different workouts than the rest of the group, is he giving him bad advice on race strategies? Smith clearly negotiated to be allowed to continue coaching Young when he agreed to coach more Nike athletes because he cared that much about continuing to support Young - so why would that have changed now?

RunCoach4Colo wrote:

last year it was not Smith’s literal job to make Nike athletes win, now it is. Before, he was a college coach supplementing pros, his paycheck did not depend on advancing Nike’s competitive and marketing interests. This year, he is a Nike paid pro coach running a Nike funded team, which means his professional success is now structurally tied to Nike athletes outperforming everyone else, not an Adidas athlete being the star of the group. That does not require sabotaging Nico with different workouts or bad race advice that’s a strawman. Influence shows up in who the long term build is centered around, who gets optimized for championships vs. development, who is protected in racing, whose peaks align with priority meets, and whose success best serves the brand paying the bills. And from a pure business standpoint, it makes zero sense for Nike executives to be funding a group where the best outcome is an Adidas athlete repeatedly beating Nike’s own stars and potentially medaling for a rival brand. That reality alone explains why Nico is no longer structurally the focal point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

Ghy784 wrote:

RunCoach4Colo wrote:

last year it was not Smith’s literal job to make Nike athletes win, now it is. Before, he was a college coach supplementing pros, his paycheck did not depend on advancing Nike’s competitive and marketing interests. This year, he is a Nike paid pro coach running a Nike funded team, which means his professional success is now structurally tied to Nike athletes outperforming everyone else, not an Adidas athlete being the star of the group. That does not require sabotaging Nico with different workouts or bad race advice that’s a strawman. Influence shows up in who the long term build is centered around, who gets optimized for championships vs. development, who is protected in racing, whose peaks align with priority meets, and whose success best serves the brand paying the bills. And from a pure business standpoint, it makes zero sense for Nike executives to be funding a group where the best outcome is an Adidas athlete repeatedly beating Nike’s own stars and potentially medaling for a rival brand. That reality alone explains why Nico is no longer structurally the focal point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

So, I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense for Nike to allow Smith to coach Young. But, that's what Nike agreed so for now that's a done deal. If what you say is true and Smith is going to prioritize the success of the Nike athletes, why did Smith negotiate with Nike to be allowed to continue coaching Young? Did he care that much about continuing to coach Young, but was okay with not prioritizing him compared to the other athletes he coaches?

I think Smith cares about coaching all of his athletes to be their best, and doesn't care who sponsors them. If Nike were to tell Smith tomorrow he needs to stop coaching Young or they'll terminate his contract, I think he'd tell Nike to go ahead and terminate it.

Some of the athletes Smith coaches do run the same events and will be competing to win the same races and make the same teams - there is that inherent conflict in coaching any pro group in an individual sport like track. But I don't think Nike writing Smith's paychecks makes that any more of a conflict than it would already be.