Well yes and no. Double threshold training is a training method that increases your type IIa fibers to behave more oxidative. So in terms of it adapting for runners it would and it wouldn't. So for someone like Josh Kerr who is type IIa dominant he would see gains from it more rapidly than someone who is predominantly slow twitch like eliud kipchoge whereas eliud kipchoge may see faster gains than someone like Usain bolt is who type 2x dominant
Hello everyone, I would really appreciate if there were some exchanges here with other FT runners who are having difficulties with the NSM method.
I myself had to quit NSM after 6 weeks.
I think my mistakes were:
I set the paces for the sub-T sessions according to the recommendations from Lactrace (1k reps at 15k pace, 2k reps at half-marathon pace, 3k reps just under marathon pace), which was too hot for me.
I also tried to hit target pace already on the first rep.
On top of that, I didn't take in any carbohydrates during the sessions, since I run at around 6 AM.
The slow runs shouldn't have been an issue (65% max heart rate).
I took a deload week and this week I'm making a new attempt.
Plan: 3x3k @ marathon pace; 4x2k @ half-marathon pace +10 seconds; 8x1k @ half-marathon pace, starting each session around marathon pace and working down to target pace.
If that's still too much, I'll focus on the shorter intervals and try that (20x400 @ below HP; 8x1k @ above HP; 4x2k @MP). What do you think?
I used to make a lot of fancy pastas when i was younger. Now that i am older and have kids, i find i no longer have the time to make past like i used to.
Recently i stumbled across the thread about making pasta the modified Italian way: bringing a salted pot of water to a boil, cooking the pasta for 8 minutes, straining, and adding tomato sauce. While the simplicity of this method initially appealed to me, I am unhappy with the results.
I have followed the recipe to a T. The only modifications i made were extremely minor and should no way impact the final dish.
Here is my approach: Instead of cooking the pasta for 8 minutes, I cook it for 5. I also don't add any tomato sauce.
Can Letspasta please validate my opinion that the modified Italian method of making pasta simply does not work for everyone? Am i not a good candidate for this recipe?
Last year I was running 35 mpw with a 30 minute threshold session (usually 10x3 minutes at 6:10) and a park run each week. I improved from around 18:10 to around 17:30. It was a big breakthrough.
Now, it is simply not working and I have regressed back to around 18:10.
This week I did 50 minutes of threshold (10x3 and 4x5) and previous weeks I have done 12x3. My parkrun splits suck - recently I did 5:53, 6:08, 6:08.
I feel like it is time to drop this threshold and just do faster workouts and hills. It is like I am not longer getting stimulus from it. I still feel fit, but my 5k sucks. Perhaps time to move to the marathon?
Last year I was running 35 mpw with a 30 minute threshold session (usually 10x3 minutes at 6:10) and a park run each week. I improved from around 18:10 to around 17:30. It was a big breakthrough.
Now, it is simply not working and I have regressed back to around 18:10.
This week I did 50 minutes of threshold (10x3 and 4x5) and previous weeks I have done 12x3. My parkrun splits suck - recently I did 5:53, 6:08, 6:08.
I feel like it is time to drop this threshold and just do faster workouts and hills. It is like I am not longer getting stimulus from it. I still feel fit, but my 5k sucks. Perhaps time to move to the marathon?
Reading through this thread, most people are not doing threshold. They’re running way too fast. If you’re running 5:53/6:08/6:08 splits for a 5k and doing 10 x 3 mins at 6:10 pace, that is just not threshold. I’ve also seen people in this thread severely screwing up the easy days. The OP, threshold non-responder, said his PB was around 20 mins for 5k but was running “easy” days at 8:30 or faster. That’s too fast. You need to be brutally honest with your fitness and train accordingly. Slow down the threshold and the easy days
I’m also curious as to how people are defining “fast twitch.” I want everybody who calls themselves a “fast twitch runner” to post their PBs from 100, 200 and 400. Most likely, these people are not true fast twitch. They aerobically underdeveloped. I know plenty of people that can run 200s in under 24s and respond just fine to threshold.
Last year I was running 35 mpw with a 30 minute threshold session (usually 10x3 minutes at 6:10) and a park run each week. I improved from around 18:10 to around 17:30. It was a big breakthrough.
Now, it is simply not working and I have regressed back to around 18:10.
This week I did 50 minutes of threshold (10x3 and 4x5) and previous weeks I have done 12x3. My parkrun splits suck - recently I did 5:53, 6:08, 6:08.
I feel like it is time to drop this threshold and just do faster workouts and hills. It is like I am not longer getting stimulus from it. I still feel fit, but my 5k sucks. Perhaps time to move to the marathon?
Reading through this thread, most people are not doing threshold. They’re running way too fast. If you’re running 5:53/6:08/6:08 splits for a 5k and doing 10 x 3 mins at 6:10 pace, that is just not threshold. I’ve also seen people in this thread severely screwing up the easy days. The OP, threshold non-responder, said his PB was around 20 mins for 5k but was running “easy” days at 8:30 or faster. That’s too fast. You need to be brutally honest with your fitness and train accordingly. Slow down the threshold and the easy days
I’m also curious as to how people are defining “fast twitch.” I want everybody who calls themselves a “fast twitch runner” to post their PBs from 100, 200 and 400. Most likely, these people are not true fast twitch. They aerobically underdeveloped. I know plenty of people that can run 200s in under 24s and respond just fine to threshold.
What workouts do you suggest?
I was basing my threshold pace on a 1:22 half I did in June.
Last year I was running 35 mpw with a 30 minute threshold session (usually 10x3 minutes at 6:10) and a park run each week. I improved from around 18:10 to around 17:30. It was a big breakthrough.
Now, it is simply not working and I have regressed back to around 18:10.
This week I did 50 minutes of threshold (10x3 and 4x5) and previous weeks I have done 12x3. My parkrun splits suck - recently I did 5:53, 6:08, 6:08.
I feel like it is time to drop this threshold and just do faster workouts and hills. It is like I am not longer getting stimulus from it. I still feel fit, but my 5k sucks. Perhaps time to move to the marathon?
Reading through this thread, most people are not doing threshold. They’re running way too fast. If you’re running 5:53/6:08/6:08 splits for a 5k and doing 10 x 3 mins at 6:10 pace, that is just not threshold. I’ve also seen people in this thread severely screwing up the easy days. The OP, threshold non-responder, said his PB was around 20 mins for 5k but was running “easy” days at 8:30 or faster. That’s too fast. You need to be brutally honest with your fitness and train accordingly. Slow down the threshold and the easy days
I’m also curious as to how people are defining “fast twitch.” I want everybody who calls themselves a “fast twitch runner” to post their PBs from 100, 200 and 400. Most likely, these people are not true fast twitch. They aerobically underdeveloped. I know plenty of people that can run 200s in under 24s and respond just fine to threshold.
17:30 is like 5:40 pace. 6:10 is as threshold is in the realm of reasonable. You would have to review the logs to see what is going on and why the regression happens. It could be as simple as going from racing every other week to every 6 weeks. Thats a lot of missed vo2max work and you will not be as sharp on race day.
And yeah the number of FT athletes drop a lot when people run 60+mpw….
After doing threshold for over a year I have dropped it completely. I felt like it was holding me back and it was neither fast nor slow. Now I go above and below (sub-threshold and race pace) but never threshold.
After doing threshold for over a year I have dropped it completely. I felt like it was holding me back and it was neither fast nor slow. Now I go above and below (sub-threshold and race pace) but never threshold.
Spoken like someone who has no idea what threshold is. It’s a state. It’s not “black or white.” You get threshold adaptations from running above and below threshold, which is not a pace. You could run short bouts of race pace with adequate rest and be in threshold state. And subthreshold pace is one of the best ways to push your threshold up, so congrats. You managed to learn how to train your threshold adequately despite thinking you’re not doing threshold work.
Last year I was running 35 mpw with a 30 minute threshold session (usually 10x3 minutes at 6:10) and a park run each week. I improved from around 18:10 to around 17:30. It was a big breakthrough.
Now, it is simply not working and I have regressed back to around 18:10.
This week I did 50 minutes of threshold (10x3 and 4x5) and previous weeks I have done 12x3. My parkrun splits suck - recently I did 5:53, 6:08, 6:08.
I feel like it is time to drop this threshold and just do faster workouts and hills. It is like I am not longer getting stimulus from it. I still feel fit, but my 5k sucks. Perhaps time to move to the marathon?
Reading through this thread, most people are not doing threshold. They’re running way too fast. If you’re running 5:53/6:08/6:08 splits for a 5k and doing 10 x 3 mins at 6:10 pace, that is just not threshold. I’ve also seen people in this thread severely screwing up the easy days. The OP, threshold non-responder, said his PB was around 20 mins for 5k but was running “easy” days at 8:30 or faster. That’s too fast. You need to be brutally honest with your fitness and train accordingly. Slow down the threshold and the easy days
17:30 is 5:38 pace, so I'd argue 10x3 min reps at 6:10 is too slow, if they're going by the 17:30 time. Sirpoc does 1k repeats in 3:05/4:58 mile pace, & his PR pace using 15:00 5k is 4:50 mile pace, so he's (when he was healthy & running) doing 1k reps only 8 sec slower. (I can't recall if he actually ran 15:00, but I know he was close to breaking 15.) People love to talk about subthreshold but it didn't take Sirpoc long to routinely do his easy & workouts quite a bit faster than the lactrace calculator & push paces much closer to LT than I think people realize.
Once you've been doing this for 6 months or more & have a good aerobic foundation, I think you can push paces as long as it's sustainable week after week & you're monitoring heart rate (easy runs 70% or below & workouts below lactate threshold.) You have to keep challenging your system as your body adapts & it doesn't take long before the body gets pretty comfortable with this training load if you're not pushing paces or volume. Thing is a lot of us don't have time to push volume, but do have time to increase intensity.
Last year I was running 35 mpw with a 30 minute threshold session (usually 10x3 minutes at 6:10) and a park run each week. I improved from around 18:10 to around 17:30. It was a big breakthrough.
Now, it is simply not working and I have regressed back to around 18:10.
This week I did 50 minutes of threshold (10x3 and 4x5) and previous weeks I have done 12x3. My parkrun splits suck - recently I did 5:53, 6:08, 6:08.
I feel like it is time to drop this threshold and just do faster workouts and hills. It is like I am not longer getting stimulus from it. I still feel fit, but my 5k sucks. Perhaps time to move to the marathon?
Reading through this thread, most people are not doing threshold. They’re running way too fast. If you’re running 5:53/6:08/6:08 splits for a 5k and doing 10 x 3 mins at 6:10 pace, that is just not threshold. I’ve also seen people in this thread severely screwing up the easy days. The OP, threshold non-responder, said his PB was around 20 mins for 5k but was running “easy” days at 8:30 or faster. That’s too fast. You need to be brutally honest with your fitness and train accordingly. Slow down the threshold and the easy days
I’m also curious as to how people are defining “fast twitch.” I want everybody who calls themselves a “fast twitch runner” to post their PBs from 100, 200 and 400. Most likely, these people are not true fast twitch. They aerobically underdeveloped. I know plenty of people that can run 200s in under 24s and respond just fine to threshold.
I not sure about that. When I was 65, I ran 19:45 for 5k off about 30 miles a week alternating EIM (Easy Interval) sessions with recovery days of 3-4 miles at between 7:45 and 8:15 per mile.
Reading through this thread, most people are not doing threshold. They’re running way too fast. If you’re running 5:53/6:08/6:08 splits for a 5k and doing 10 x 3 mins at 6:10 pace, that is just not threshold. I’ve also seen people in this thread severely screwing up the easy days. The OP, threshold non-responder, said his PB was around 20 mins for 5k but was running “easy” days at 8:30 or faster. That’s too fast. You need to be brutally honest with your fitness and train accordingly. Slow down the threshold and the easy days
17:30 is 5:38 pace, so I'd argue 10x3 min reps at 6:10 is too slow, if they're going by the 17:30 time. Sirpoc does 1k repeats in 3:05/4:58 mile pace, & his PR pace using 15:00 5k is 4:50 mile pace, so he's (when he was healthy & running) doing 1k reps only 8 sec slower. (I can't recall if he actually ran 15:00, but I know he was close to breaking 15.) People love to talk about subthreshold but it didn't take Sirpoc long to routinely do his easy & workouts quite a bit faster than the lactrace calculator & push paces much closer to LT than I think people realize.
Once you've been doing this for 6 months or more & have a good aerobic foundation, I think you can push paces as long as it's sustainable week after week & you're monitoring heart rate (easy runs 70% or below & workouts below lactate threshold.) You have to keep challenging your system as your body adapts & it doesn't take long before the body gets pretty comfortable with this training load if you're not pushing paces or volume. Thing is a lot of us don't have time to push volume, but do have time to increase intensity.
James Copeland right? I remember looking at his strava profile and thinking his reps were awfully fast. Not sub t at all.