when he repeatedly has stated that in wr regions the 1/100 count (Ingebrigtsen is not a 3:26 athlete - which he obviously is)
Dumb: Keino has not run faster than 3:36x at sea-level and 3:34x at altitude. Giving the impression that he has run 2 seconds faster at altitude. Btw. there is nothing wrong with that - in Mexico he has run the race of his life.
But let's check Dumb's "facts":
Mexico: 3:34.91, converted Mile PB: 3:35.83 - so a difference of 0.92.
So there is a new info for Dumb (also in fact it was given to him before) and he now could rethink his view little bit with this new info. But he will not, because he is not interested in facts.
I wouldn’t say greatest ever but clearly ahead of his time. This debate is routine on here, but I’ve always thought Ryun would’ve been a second per lap faster with modern tracks and better pacing, pre-super shoes. Jim Ryun would’ve been a 3:29/3:47 guy if he were running in 2018. Then give him the super shoes, and he’s sub-3:27/sub-3:45, consistent with the best, non-doped in recent history. If Jim Ryun were running in the 2024 Olympic 1500, he would’ve medaled and been right there for gold.
Super spikes aren’t worth that much in a 1500, and it’s a huge assumption that anyone has run sub-3:27 clean.
Oh, but they are. Just ask ArmstrongLiv’s buddy in Nick Willis. He’s already said they’re worth 2.5 seconds over four laps, and that’s the first generation shoes (research studies have both this out, more for less efficient runners). Otherwise I agree with your second statement that it’s a huge assumption. Especially during the Epo era.
Okay. No gold medals, only one total medal, a short career, and his times have all been destroyed for a long time.
On the other hand, he ran multiple world records in the mile, 1500m, and 800m on very slow tracks with no drafting or pacing in most of them, and showed the ability under modern conditions to run still-standing world records. He also was the best closer of all time, running 36s on dirt for the last 300m of a 3:38 1500m in 1967.
He didn't close 36 for the last 300. That was not a definitive measure and has been argued from analysis of the race that it is an exaggeration, that it was closer to 38.
He closed in 36.5
Who did this "analysis of the race" you are talking? Dumb himself?
It was around 36.5 - from non-Dumb analysis of the race.
Super spikes aren’t worth that much in a 1500, and it’s a huge assumption that anyone has run sub-3:27 clean.
Oh, but they are. Just ask ArmstrongLiv’s buddy in Nick Willis. He’s already said they’re worth 2.5 seconds over four laps, and that’s the first generation shoes (research studies have borne this out, more for less efficient runners). Otherwise I agree with your second statement that it’s a huge assumption. Especially during the Epo era.
Jim Ryun set the NCAA 800 meter record in 1966. That's 58 years ago (2025 - 1966 = 59). He was 19 years old!
If I recall...mary decker held every American record from 800m to 10000m at the same time. And set 17 world records. She held every WORLD record from 800m to 10000 meters at the same time!!!!I
Decker never held the WR in the 800m, 1000m, 1500m, 3000m - what are you talking about?
He fell because he moved from lane 1 lane 2 through that pack, in an attempt to pass the field while running at the end. It was his - and only his - mistake.
Jim Ryun set the NCAA 800 meter record in 1966. That's 58 years ago (2025 - 1966 = 59). He was 19 years old!
The greatest of all time? Depends how you define it. James Ronald Ryun had unmatched potential—he peaked at just 21 before injuries and overtraining cut his career short. Imagine what could've been!"
We all can appreciate the greatness of Jim Ryun, and how amazingly fast he ran at a young age, but we cannot label him the G.O.A.T As noted in a previous post, in order to be in the G.O.A.T conversation you MUST have be an Olympic Champion, World Champion, and World Record holder at some point in your career. Longevity in the sport and consistently performing at a high level in multiple events are also factors that strengthen an athlete's argument of being The Greatest Of All Time.
Super carbon cheater shoes + modern training/nutrition + trampoline tracks: 3:25 easily.
Will be hard for someone to run on a 400m track after being used to short tracks.
My twin brother and I both ran for Div III schools. We weren't talented but we had enthusiasm.
I remember vividly when we were juniors and I was visiting his dorm and a freshman came onto his cross country team that was from Kansas and showed us his prize possession: spikes from high school that he scored that Jim Ryan ran in. An odd dorm decoration for sure, but it stuck me, BACK IN 1980, how primitive these shoes were. I held them and they looked like something out of the Jim Thorpe collection. And on cinder tracks (which I also ran on in high school), no professional career path, antiquated training, etc etc. Just remarkable what that man did.
Every few years this becomes a post topic. Clearly an argument could be made that he was the GOAT. But even so, to paraphrase Bum Phillips, Ryun may or may not be in a class of his own but the class he is in wouldn't take very long to call roll.
BTW, My brother and I both had the pleasure of going to his running camp 49 years ago (!). He was and is a remarkable man, class act.
If I could I would post a picture of the 1968 1500 final showing how much Keino beat him by but even if I did Ryun wouldn.t be in the frame. No need to compare different eras of runners his contemporary clobbered him.
Imagine if Jim Ryun had the same resume, only also had 3 olympic gold medals (plus a silver from a relay team). Now you have Jim Lightbody, the ACTUAL greatest runner of all time.
If the criteria is: line up every athlete from every era with 6 months of the same (modern) training, same shoes, same tracks etc... Ryun would be very high up in terms of who has a legitimate shot to win in the middle distance category. Zatopek has a resume that likely won't be repeated. But if he raced in the conditions described above, he likely doesn't finish in the top 1000. I think Henry Rono would be very high on the list as well.
So only starting running at 18 and training in heavy boots and sometimes running on the spot in the bath, he can solo run a 13:57 on a chewed up grass track. I think it's reasonable to believe that with only 6 months modern training he could conceivably run under 13:22, which only around 1,000 people have done still.
Then if all these guys are giving anti-doping, then that will take out a lot of the 80's, 90s, and 00's guys, maybe making it closer to 700.
Kip Keino did defeat Jim Ryun twice in the Olympics: In the 1968 OG 1500 final, and in heat 4 of the 1972 OG 1500. Keino and Ryun were seeded in the same heat in 1972 because Ryun's 3:52.8 mile that year - at the time the third-fastest in history - had mistakenly been listed as a 1500 time. Ryun was tripped by another runner in the heat, and failed to advance. Keino won that heat and finished second in the final.
Kip Keino did defeat Jim Ryun twice in the Olympics: In the 1968 OG 1500 final, and in heat 4 of the 1972 OG 1500. Keino and Ryun were seeded in the same heat in 1972 because Ryun's 3:52.8 mile that year - at the time the third-fastest in history - had mistakenly been listed as a 1500 time. Ryun was tripped by another runner in the heat, and failed to advance. Keino won that heat and finished second in the final.
No one counts qualifying rounds in the W-L column. You either advance or you don't.
