The ignorance is those like you who believe doping isn't present in the sport despite WADA saying it is in schools. High schoolers have trained rigorously since Ryun's era. They haven't only just discovered hard work.
IF theyre already living and training like pro's and elites when theyre in their teens,they wont have long careers.Especially if some of them havent stopped growing. Most of them will pay the price for being so good,so young.
Yeah that high school phenom Allyson Felix really tanked her career for being so excellent so young huh? Her post high schools career really went nowhere after her high school excellence. And don’t forget Sydney McLaughlin! She was phenomenal in high school . . . multiple national high school records. But as you so clairvoyantly set forth . . . Sydney McLaughlin’s post high schools career? What a disaster! Your analysis is so insightful!
So what is your explanation for the sudden appearance of apparent prodigies today when such performances were virtually unknown in previous decades? Did talented youngsters not engage in the sport in the past? It isnt as though kids have only just discovered the sport - or that levels of participation in the sport has suddenly increased. There are other sports far more popular than running.
But even if you can point to exceptional performances today they don't show that the very best performances now being recorded by teenagers will be necessarily be clean. WADA has found that doping is in schools and teenage sport as it is at every other level, from open and pros to masters. There is no single change to the sport that explains a sudden elevation in teenage sports in the last few years better than the use of peds where previously they have been little used. If ambitious seniors dope, why wouldn't juniors?
He gave the answers in his previous post. I have asked you more than once to read it.
So what is your explanation for the sudden appearance of apparent prodigies today when such performances were virtually unknown in previous decades? Did talented youngsters not engage in the sport in the past? It isnt as though kids have only just discovered the sport - or that levels of participation in the sport has suddenly increased. There are other sports far more popular than running.
But even if you can point to exceptional performances today they don't show that the very best performances now being recorded by teenagers will be necessarily be clean. WADA has found that doping is in schools and teenage sport as it is at every other level, from open and pros to masters. There is no single change to the sport that explains a sudden elevation in teenage sports in the last few years better than the use of peds where previously they have been little used. If ambitious seniors dope, why wouldn't juniors?
"sudden appearance of apparent prodigies today" Are you serious? We have "prodigies" every year.
We don't. That is the point of this thread - or it wouldn't have been posted. Their appearance has been only in the last few years.
So what is your explanation for the sudden appearance of apparent prodigies today when such performances were virtually unknown in previous decades? Did talented youngsters not engage in the sport in the past? It isnt as though kids have only just discovered the sport - or that levels of participation in the sport has suddenly increased. There are other sports far more popular than running.
But even if you can point to exceptional performances today they don't show that the very best performances now being recorded by teenagers will be necessarily be clean. WADA has found that doping is in schools and teenage sport as it is at every other level, from open and pros to masters. There is no single change to the sport that explains a sudden elevation in teenage sports in the last few years better than the use of peds where previously they have been little used. If ambitious seniors dope, why wouldn't juniors?
It’s not doping. in 2019, HS runners were no more special that they were in 2013. In 2021, HS running, as well as collegiate and pro, saw a dramatic improvement in times. What happened between 2019 and 2021? It wasn’t PEDs (which have been around since, at least, the 70s). It is super shoes. And more specific, spikes. My first experience with the spikes was watching two collegiate athletes not able to break 14:20 in an indoor 5000m winter of 2019/20, break 29:00 in a 10000m 3 months later after switching to dragonflys.
It’s not a few athletes that are running well - it’s every athlete. So, either everyone has access to and is doping or… OR, they all have access to something that improves times and, is legal. There is no doubt that some HS runners are doping. But it’s probably not nearly as many as you think. 100%, without question, it is the shoes.
It is naive to argue that athletes would only avail themselves of the technology of shoes when there are other forms of technology that will enhance performance more than shoes will (which is why the shoes aren't banned).
I'm not sure why it has to be just one thing? Can't it be a combination?
Yes shoes are making people faster. Yes training is better. Yes some are seeing others race and it makes them faster. Yes more are committed year round. Yes we are getting better athletes in the sport. Yes some are doping.
All of this, for sure. Those who are trying to explain this by pointing to a single factor cannot actually be involved in the sport. It's all of it. And yes, some kids are doping, but not the majority. Supplementing, YES. But not doping. There are big gains to be had with legal supplements these days- enough to give you an edge without risking your future.
The argument ISNT that everyone is doping. But some will be and quite likely enough of them for it to have an effect on a range of performances. It is known that academic cheating is a problem in schools and universities. Sport will be no different.
it's so obviously cheater shoes. the sport is growing, and more kids are running, and we're naturally on a curve of gradual improvement, but the insane record breaking times across the board are almost entirely due to cheater shoes.
If "cheater shoes" are ok why would anyone balk at doping? Just another form of cheating.
You have zero evidence that Hedengren or any of the other 2024-25 exceptional HIGH SCHOOL athletes discussed here or LRC are doping “and everyone on here knows it.” It’s nothing more than bias, ignorant, speculation. 🤦♂️
It is no more speculative than saying "it's the shoes". Actually less so - since doping is known to be present and known to have significant performance enhancing effects greater than shoes.
It seems like the posts pointing mainly to the shoes get downvoted. I don't know much about distance running, so I don't have a valid opinion on what could be driving improvement there. But I will tell you that sprint times have come down substantially in the NCAA once the new sprint spikes hit.
Just out of curiosity, I pulled the 100th best time across the sprints (100m, 200m, 400m) and in both D1 and D3. Those times remained largely consistent for years through 2019. 2020 and 2021 were weird with COVID and reduced racing (they actually got slower). But then there was a sudden drop in 2022, and times have been about 1-1.5% faster. And this improvement aligns nearly perfectly with the papers that have tried to quantify the improvement in Maximum Sprinting Speed.
So while I don't know much about distance running, I can tell you that the shoes sure seem to have created a change in the sprints. And lactate/threshold/altitude training have nothing to do with that.
Justin Gatlin and Marion Jones say it isn't just the shoes.
You have zero evidence that Hedengren or any of the other 2024-25 exceptional HIGH SCHOOL athletes discussed here or LRC are doping “and everyone on here knows it.” It’s nothing more than bias, ignorant, speculation. 🤦♂️
Yeah and what would be Hedengren’s motivation be to dope? She is way, way faster than what she needs to receive a scholarship.
Athletes will do whatever they can to succeed. That's becoming the best they can be - however they achieve it. It isn't just about scholarships or becoming pro.
Yeah and what would be Hedengren’s motivation be to dope? She is way, way faster than what she needs to receive a scholarship.
Hedengren’s father is heavily involved in her training (former D1 runner). He is also a professor at BYU. He would be immediately fired from BYU if he was implicated in a doping scheme. Zero chance Jane Hedengren is doping. Perfectly designed very hard training, genetics, and living at 4600ft her whole life is the reason for her dominance.
In a sport where doping is present at the top the chances are never zero.
Hedengren herself has said on podcasts that she comes from family of runners. Aunts and Uncles that ran at BYU.
she also has said she is mentored-coached by Olympian Juli Benson who coaches pros.
you would be stunned at what some of these elite high schoolers are doing... altitude tents, private coaching and loads of support, often from parents who ran in college or professionally.
Exactly, we are a much richer nation now than 20 years ago and there are a lot more parents that will financially support their kid achieving their dreams. And the technology and information is available now.
A more cynical way to put it is, when you are 40-50 there are a few ways to compete with your peers. Prestigious job, staying in good shape, nice stuff, and successful kids. If you have the time, knowledge, and money it’s now easier than ever to create successful kids.
The money and resources that I hear about parents dropping on their kids is absurd compared to the norm 30 years ago.
The NFHS is the national leader and advocate for high school athletics as well as fine and performing arts programs. Within our 51 member state associations, we serve 19,500 high schools and more than 12 million young people.
1- middle school xc. When 3/4 of your incoming freshmen have never run more than 2 miles or 6mpw it takes a couple of years to get them up to a proper mileage. Incoming freshmen already at 40mpw is a game changer.
2- shoes. The racers & trainers are much much better than previous generations. Not only do they allow you to run faster they allow you to run more which increases ability to run faster.
3- mindset. kids now do not look at 4:00 as they did in my day. the 4:20 isnt fast mentality has some truth to it.
4- better coaching. More coaches are paying attention to and implementing practices of the top coaches.
5- opportunity. Instead of duel meets and scrored meets there are a lot more invitationals where you only show up to run fast as opposed to running to score points.
"sudden appearance of apparent prodigies today" Are you serious? We have "prodigies" every year.
We don't. That is the point of this thread - or it wouldn't have been posted. Their appearance has been only in the last few years.
Here is some help for you from Chat GPT:
🇺🇸 Top American Distance Prodigies (2005–2025) 🏃♂️ Boys/Men Nico Young High School: NXN champion (2019), HS 3k (7:56) and 5k (13:50) records. College (NAU): Multiple NCAA podiums in XC and track. Pro (On Running): Broke U.S. indoor 5k record (12:57, 2024). Hobbs Kessler High School: 3:34.36 for 1500m (HS record, 2021); faster than Olympic standard. Pro (Adidas): Signed pro before college; 3:48 mile in 2023. Drew Hunter High School: Sub-4:00 miler; U.S. junior 1500m record. Pro: Signed with Adidas straight from HS (2016); successful indoor and road racing career. Reed Brown High School: Sub-4:00 mile in 2017 (3:59.30). College (Oregon): Solid career; not quite same impact as peers. Colin Sahlman High School: 3:58 mile (2022), 1:48 800m, 8:33 2-mile. College (NAU): Part of strong NCAA cross and track squads. 🏃♀️ Girls/Women Mary Cain High School: 4:04 1500m (2013); world finalist at age 17. Pro (Nike Oregon Project): Youngest U.S. athlete ever at Worlds (2013); later outspoken advocate for athlete wellness. Katelyn Tuohy High School: 3× NXN champ; 15:37 5k, 9:47 2-mile. College (NC State): NCAA XC champ (2022), NCAA indoor/outdoor titles. Pro (Adidas, 2024): Still early pro career but a huge star. Lexy Halladay High School: 4:41 mile, 10:01 2-mile. College (BYU): Strong contributor; NCAA finalist-level athlete. Caitlin Collier High School: 800m in 2:00; 1500m in 4:10. College (Florida): NCAA finalist. Sydney Thorvaldson High School: 9:47 2-mile, 16:06 5k XC. College (Arkansas): Top recruit with continued development in longer events.
Yes they happen every year and every time someone asks "How did they run so fast?" It's not just one thing.
Once the money and celebrity started to flow (Tuohy was the first collegiate distance runner wth a NIL deal), the inncence evaporated.
All astro is saying is that when Tuohy started doping at an East German level back in 2017 or so, it set off a chain reaction. Everybody saw how easy it was for Frankentuohy to get away with it and all of the attention she received. It lead to a scholarship, an NIL deal, and contracts with Adidas, some no-name granola and soft drink companies, and, of course, Nick Bare's "supplement" company. And to this day she still has never taken a single test.
I would say the perfect atorm was NIL, social media celebrity, and the professionalization of the ncaa. It becomes pointless to take a principled stand against doping in college when colleges are importing pros from the worst doping cesspools. And if the prohibition breaks down among college runners, then inevitably that mindset will bleed down to high school. That's how professionalization works. If you have high school runners now training with pro trainers and with pro athletes, that means you will get pro methods, and that includes peds. Cannot put the genie back in the bottle once the firewall collapses. Then you add Valby's too good to be true romp to instant fame and glory, and here we are.
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