Thank football and basketball powerhouses for all the academic loopholes for athletics. There have been far more American ball players (hello, Dexter Manley) who never belonged on a college campus and never got a degree so were in essence a waste of scholarship and classroom space taken away from real students than was ever the case for track runners from anywhere. Prop 48 and "partial qualifier" were not conceived for Henry Rono or Sydney Maree.
What if this 4:10/9:00 state champion got a scholarship somewhere else? Or is Iowa State the only option?
Most of the colleges that bring in foreigners are schools that have difficulty recruiting top 50 Americans.
Schools like Oklahoma St, Iowa St, Iona, Tulsa, Alabama, New Mexico, LSU, Texas Tech just are not going to win recruiting battles with Stanford, Oregon, Washington, Arkansas, Wake, Colorado, Virginia, Michigan, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Georgetown, BYU, Duke, Villanova etc.
If Iowa St takes a group of 9:00/4:10 guys from the 2nd 50, they will have a team of nice developing guys, but they won't win conference or challenge at the national level.
The Syracuse, NAU, Portland, and OSU team with Colby Lowe and German show that sometimes a coach can make a difference and get top Americans to come to a 'lesser' school, but it's the exception rather than the rule.
International kids often don't know the pecking order of American colleges, so they are just happy to get a free ride and run anywhere. Sometimes now they transfer after they get here and learn the true lay of the land.
So if coach and AD are expected to compete for conference and NCAA titles, and the school cannot attract the best US athletes, even with money, their best hope is to turn to foreigners.
I get that part, but why does getaneducation give an example of a runner that can only go to Iowa State. He could probably find opportunities at other schools. I'm pretty sure 4:10/9:00 could get a scholarship somewhere else.
Also, using getaneducation's example, would out of state athletes be able to attend Iowa State if their parents don't pay taxes in that state?
These stories of professional runners who have never used a computer before landing on campus crosses the line into the student part being unbelievable and the entire system comes into question.
^This. Remind me again why our universities are running minor sports leagues. How about we ban athletic scholarships altogether?
No they dont. They can demand that schools get less funding but they do not now nor will they ever get a say on how a school runs its self. Univeritites are not beholden to state and federal entities when it comes to operations. They just get funding to help with finances. How the athletic department runs is none of their business. I have been out of coaching for a while and I had a few international kids but developed plenty of our kids into All Americans, National champs and Oly qualifiers. Nothing Jack's book can tell me that I didnt already ask him personally. I know that my parents would have told me to get better if I got cut. No handouts. I really do not understand the entitlement and ego that fuels this. Do the work. If you lose you then you lose. The process is what build great people, not the results.
The big research universities -- the kind that make up the Big10 and SEC -- are dependent on Federal funding. Both through research grants (and their ~50% overheads) and indirectly through student financial aid. So the US Congress has considerable "power of the purse strings" here. That is how Title IX is (theoretically) enforced.
No. If a foreign athlete has eligibility they can compete. I didn't see to many foreign athlete though, at least not in the sports that matter, football and basketball.
I think both sides have very good arguments. I think there is room for compromise somewhere in between. I hope something can be done to limit foreign participation, whether it be age or numbers restrictions. With that said, I think opportunities should still exist for foreign students but just not without SOME restriction. In academia there are some restrictions in terms of aid and scholarships at some schools.
No they dont. They can demand that schools get less funding but they do not now nor will they ever get a say on how a school runs its self. Univeritites are not beholden to state and federal entities when it comes to operations. They just get funding to help with finances. How the athletic department runs is none of their business. I have been out of coaching for a while and I had a few international kids but developed plenty of our kids into All Americans, National champs and Oly qualifiers. Nothing Jack's book can tell me that I didnt already ask him personally. I know that my parents would have told me to get better if I got cut. No handouts. I really do not understand the entitlement and ego that fuels this. Do the work. If you lose you then you lose. The process is what build great people, not the results.
This whole thread was started by Texas state representatives proposing a bill to limit foreign athletes in their public universities. That is an example of taxpayer-elected representatives dictating how the universities should spend their money. The universities could choose to ignore the legislature, but will go bankrupt in the process. You are simply incorrect about the nature of reality.
I'm not convinced that lazy NCAA coaches bringing in rosters of 13:30-40 failed pro Kenyans contributes to our Universities' international reputation or our position on the world stage. If you have noticed there is actually a pretty consistent inverse correlation between the academic merit of an institution and the amount of Kenyans on their squad. I fact I don't think there is a single one in the Ivy League.
I have no problem with our colleges getting the "best people", if we are talking about geniuses that go to MIT and such. However, American public universities exist primarily to serve the state residents that fund them. This is why in-state residents are often given an easier time getting in and academic scholarships that are not available for other residents. If you want to hypocrisy burn me and call all of this DEI, again that gaslighting doesn't phase me as I have previously explained.
Limiting foreign scholarships will not turn the NCAA into a "JV league", I'm not suggesting giving these scholarships to 4:30 milers. What I am saying as if the scholarship is between an American 17 year old that has run 8:55 and a Kenyan 10 years older that is a bit faster, it should go the American. I would expect any other country to do the same. While my personal 5k PR might make me one of the fastest men in many small European countries, I do not expect them to pay for my 200,000 dollar University education over someone who is born there and will stay there after. I'm not sure why the U.S. is held to some other standard.
Ironically the first Kenyan runner ever to complete in the NCAA ran for Cornell in the early 60s (or so.)
I don't think reaching back to when Kenya was a literal British colony helps your case. Perhaps you could give me an example from our current century?
I know that my parents would have told me to get better if I got cut. No handouts. I really do not understand the entitlement and ego that fuels this. Do the work. If you lose you then you lose. The process is what build great people, not the results.
Yeah that entitled 18 year old competing for a spot at his state university against a 28 yr old semi-professional runner from a country with a doping history that would make Russia blush. What a brat.
There is no reason for foreign athletes not to go to the NCAA. In the past when athletes had to maintain an amateur status and couldn't receive anything other than a scholarship, competition was limited because the very best wanted to get paid rather than get engineering classes. But we still had greats like Lagat, Rono, etc. run in the NCAA.
I know that my parents would have told me to get better if I got cut. No handouts. I really do not understand the entitlement and ego that fuels this. Do the work. If you lose you then you lose. The process is what build great people, not the results.
Yeah that entitled 18 year old competing for a spot at his state university against a 28 yr old semi-professional runner from a country with a doping history that would make Russia blush. What a brat.
Americans have a culture that demands students attend college that young. We penalize them if they do or don't as athletes.
If they don't attend college and aren't like a hs national champion, they have to work a crap job not conducive to training. If they attend college at 18, we take away their eligibility. Career prospects aren't so limited for hs graduates overseas. If we removed eligibility requirements, an athlete could attend college while he is seriously getting a degree and again at 28 when he wants to compete in a semi-pro league. Its a mess. The best bet would be to remove the business side from college sports and go back to them being for amateurs, but football is driving everything and a majority of football fans are only interested in college athletics as a semi-pro league.
It is ridiculous that people genuinely think it's ok to have a team full of foreign athletes. Yes that is taking spots from Americans. What do we not want people to devolp?? How do you think the US got so good today. Almost all pro Americans came through the NCAA. With roster spots being limited Americans will lose spots. You also have to understand that one foreigner cost 3 times as much as an in state kid. People keep talking about they didn't earn the spot. People in different countries are playing by different rules. I doubt Cameron Myers or Jakob were doing more then part time school. Especially when foreign athletes are 22 why has their clock not started? that's ridiculous. But if an American wants to just go to community college not even run the clock starts. And you know what a bunch of those guys have literally competed for prize money. You can literally look up habtom samuel and a random road race you're telling me he didn't take the prize money? There's no way. Also people say go d2 is being dominated by French people and east Africans.
College sports are about encouraging a stronger education atleast that's what they claim.
My solution would be limit non US citizens to only 2/7 or 30% of the team. Make it like 5/17 of the roster but you only get 2 at nationals. You could do this for other sports too has to be less then 30% of your team.
they also need to put an age limit at 25 or 26 and actually enforce the amateur status. It shouldn't be that hard to email a few race directors and ask if someone accepted prize money.
another idea is to remove coaches getting people in to the university. Although football would hate this. But all kids must apply as normal. Of course this would be cheated but it would be nice to see and would encourage academics.
Lets look at last year (women, but the rest of the world looks at them as people, not just DEI), when West Virginia placed 2nd at NCAA. Coach Cleary has a lot of Internationals (often from Canada, where he is from), as he can't bribe an American (other than local) to go there. As alluded to, Internationals haven't been fed the pablum that only certain schools offer degrees worth having - that is on America for creating this false narrative.
Strange that there doesn't seem to be this outcry about academic scholarships that also go to foreign students when qualified. Schools try and attract the best students they can - both academic and athletic - and this DEI notion that American (usually white as the black athletes don't seem to have this problem) athletes deserve (entitled) scholarship money over more developed athletes is a crock. Blame your HS developmental system (anti-club), where for every great program there are many poor ones, for this situation. If a kid like Cam Myers can run as well as he does - there should be thousands of American kids (and some are doing very well - look at Boston last weekend) doing equally well if the coaching standards were up to snuff. Change that first - as it is very changeable.
The transfer portal has also affected incoming (freshman) standards, and that has little to do with Internationals. So instead of whining - seemingly the best sport in America - change the playing field by getting better, not restricting development. Start with your HS coaching - god knows it can get better (even with the excellent coaching that already exists). I have little problem with my athletes (if talented enough) getting scholarship offers, but then they aren't all that picky as they realize that post-grad is more important academically anyway.
Ironically the first Kenyan runner ever to complete in the NCAA ran for Cornell in the early 60s (or so.)
I don't think reaching back to when Kenya was a literal British colony helps your case. Perhaps you could give me an example from our current century?
Can I give a current example of the first Kenyan to run for a US university when someone did it over sixty years ago? That's kind of hard to do. As I did not know I had a case when I posted that could you tell me what it is?
It is ridiculous that people genuinely think it's ok to have a team full of foreign athletes. Yes that is taking spots from Americans. What do we not want people to devolp?? How do you think the US got so good today. Almost all pro Americans came through the NCAA. With roster spots being limited Americans will lose spots. You also have to understand that one foreigner cost 3 times as much as an in state kid. People keep talking about they didn't earn the spot. People in different countries are playing by different rules. I doubt Cameron Myers or Jakob were doing more then part time school. Especially when foreign athletes are 22 why has their clock not started? that's ridiculous. But if an American wants to just go to community college not even run the clock starts. And you know what a bunch of those guys have literally competed for prize money. You can literally look up habtom samuel and a random road race you're telling me he didn't take the prize money? There's no way. Also people say go d2 is being dominated by French people and east Africans.
College sports are about encouraging a stronger education atleast that's what they claim.
My solution would be limit non US citizens to only 2/7 or 30% of the team. Make it like 5/17 of the roster but you only get 2 at nationals. You could do this for other sports too has to be less then 30% of your team.
they also need to put an age limit at 25 or 26 and actually enforce the amateur status. It shouldn't be that hard to email a few race directors and ask if someone accepted prize money.
another idea is to remove coaches getting people in to the university. Although football would hate this. But all kids must apply as normal. Of course this would be cheated but it would be nice to see and would encourage academics.
You don't develop athletes by shielding them from tough competition. When Ed Eyestone was running at BYU UTEP was loaded with Kenyans. Later Eyestone said something about how he was never intimidated at any international race because he knew the field would never be any tougher than the ones he faced when BYU had its annual dual meet with UTEP. By
There are a couple legitimate ways to justify such restrictions. The one that makes the most sense to me is European sports leagues have limits on the number of non-European players they can have on a roster (for soccer it is typically 2-3). Comparable treatment is reasonably justifiable.
No there aren’t.
yes there are in many leagues but more than 2-3... EPL (even tho Man City tends to skirt their way around it) always has a max number of foreign players but changes... Mexican league as well
It is ridiculous that people genuinely think it's ok to have a team full of foreign athletes. Yes that is taking spots from Americans. What do we not want people to devolp?? How do you think the US got so good today. Almost all pro Americans came through the NCAA. With roster spots being limited Americans will lose spots. Y
For the umpteenth time: No deserving American is going to lose a roster spot to a foreigner. There are literally dozens of scholarship spots available in D1, D2 and NAIA so the idea that Americans wont develop because of foreigners is bogus.
For Petes sake D1 scholarships are being awarded to 4:45 milers
There are D1 sprinters who specialize in the 400m yet their PB is like 48 seconds. You can't convince me that America is failing to develop decent and half decent runners.
If you restrict roster spots from foreigners, you will end up with hobby-joggers posing as D1 runners.
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