(Today) House passes "Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act": would ban men from women's sports

Well, we know the president elect and many of his nominated national leaders have harmed plenty of women (courts cases, facts, recorded statements for everyone to see) and it seems to be part of their core values. Why so angry at democrats for supporting girls in youth sports, aren’t you more concerned with the women shouldn’t be allowed to fight for their country? Steve?

Wait what? And this has 25 up votes?!

Of course, you refused to answer the question of whether Alicia's "reproductive organs and genetics at birth" can be determined by a genital exam.

It also cannot be determined by her original birth certificate, because she was assigned female at birth.

Unlike Semenya, no one would suspect she is genetically male by just looking at her body.

But this law is supposed to exclude someone like Alicia from girls' sports. How are you planning to implement that?

BTW, she was a varsity rower in high school. Did she compete in the wrong category?

None of this matters...You don't make laws based on less than 1% of the population...left wingers are amazing, they will argue over minutiae all day long.

Demonstrably not true. Only 2 democrats voted yes.

Since the aim is keeping males with unfair male advantage out of girls' and women's sports, genetic tests would only be needed for students who go out for girls' and women's sports.

If it turns out that someone playing girls and women's sports is genetically male, then I would expect and hope that their individual case would be assessed and decided in the discreet, compassionate and fair way that such cases were handled in elite women's sports in the 1990s when genetic testing was still done by the IOC - but it was done in a manner designed to spare anyone being subjected to the privacy violations and mistreatment that Maria Jose Martinez Patino unfortunately went through in the early-mid 1980s.

The last time that the IOC conducted mandatory genetic sex testing of all athletes seeking eligibility for women's Olympic competition was the 1996 Atlanta Games. The testing at that time looked for the presence of the Y chromosome and the SRY gene known as "testis determining factor."

Eight athletes seeking to compete in women's elite sports events at the 1996 Atlanta Games turned out to be XY with DSDs. All eight of them were allowed to compete, and none of them were outed as XY with DSDs. To this day, no one knows their names.

Given that for many decades now, all babies born in the USA have been required by law to be tested for dozens of inborn health conditions - and pretnatal genetic testing is extremely common, and it's becoming more common with each passing year - I don't see why you find it so objectionable that athletes competing in women's and girls' sports would have to undergo one-time genetic sex testing using cells obtained a totally painless swab of the cheeks inside the mouth that takes just seconds to perform.

Also, the NCAA requires that all student-athletes in all NCAA divisions now "provide their school with documented results from a previous sickle cell solubility test, or they must undergo testing during their preparticipation medical examination."

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/ssi/other/SSI_NCAASickleCellTraitforSA.pdf

During the peak years/months of the Covid crisis, student-athletes attending US schools were frequently tested for Covid in order to participate and compete in school sports.

Why is it okay for the authorites that oversee school sports in the USA to require that all athletes undergo testing for SCT and Covid, but it's not okay for those same authorities to require that athletes seeking to compete in the female category undergo one-time testing to screen them for male genetics and especially the SRY gene that in nearly all cases is the "testis determining factor"?

Almost every time an athlete "fails" a verification test it leads to harassment and vilification. It also leads to women constantly being scrutinized about how they look and how feminine they appear.

But the athletes with XY DSD will not be allowed to compete in girls' sports under this law because the sex will be solely determined by reproductive organs and genetics at birth.

Then I don't know if their privacy will be protected. If an eighth grader abruptly quits her sports team, wouldn't people ask questions on why she is quitting? Is she going to lie to everyone why she is quitting? Or will she have to come out as an intersex person and accept all the abuse that comes along with it?

Martinez Patino is listed as a cheater on "your" website.

If that's not your website, what do you think of the fact that she is listed as a cheater? How about Sarah Gronert? Is she a cheater or not?

They are not being denied anything. Non-dsd women/girls are still allowed to try out for a sport team (and positions are rarely guaranteed to anyone). They are still able to use the girls restrooms and locker rooms, unless they themselves choose not to. They are still allowed to access services. The inclusion of intersex people does not change anything about non-dsd girls eligibility. You say that the 98% should not have to be denied for the 2% (which is not happening but bear with me). But then why should the 98% be able to deny these same rights to the 2%? (BTW my last sentence is referring to intersex people, not transgender people, but my point still stands)

Perhaps because having COVID did not make the the subject of hate crimes, harassment, and/or discrimination, but being LGBTQ or intersex does.

And what about those handful of people not covered by "nearly all cases", such as some individuals with De La Chapelles? How do you recommend they be tested?

Remember only RunRagged gets to determine is a person is women enough to race. Remember this

No, I didn't refuse to answer. I've never said that the only factor involved in accurately determining a person's sex is a genital exam. You and others who oppose this law and any other measures meant to exclude males from female sports are the ones who keep bringing up genital exams, not me and women on my side of this issue.

On this thread, you're the one who keeps trying to give the false impression that in cases of DSDs, a person's sex is determined based solely on the appearance of their outer genitals and nothing else.

My position is that when an individual's sex is in question, their entire health history over the course of their whole life - and numerous different physical aspects of sex such as their genetics, their internal organs, their gonadal sex hormones, and other hormones such as GnRH secreted by the hyopthalamus the pituitary hormones LH and FSH - are taken into account.

The fact that Alicia Weigel is a genetic male with a DSD that only males can have would be easy to determine by Weigel's health history and a full physical.

Most girls start menstruating in middle school; median and average age is 12. But Weigel has never had a single menstrual period. That's a big tell.

Given that Weigel is now 35, if Weigel were female Weigel would have started menstruating at least 20 years ago - and Weigel would have been dealing with periods and the issues related to periods and the female hormone cycle for at least two decades now. Instead, Weigel has dealt with none of that - not even once just for a second.

Because you don't seem to know much of anything about female health and female experiences of going to doctors/HCPs, you seem totally in the dark about how vanishingly rare it is for someone who is female to reach their late teens without ever having had a single menstrual period. Indeed, it's extremely rare for someone female even at 14 and 15.

A person who outwardly looks female the way XY persons with CAIS do will inevitably get "found out" as not female because they never start menstruating. When people who are thought to be female reach their mid-teens without going through menarche, it's a red flag that something is wrong. If they have access to modern medical care, they will be be sent for medical evaluations to determine why they've missed the most significant milestone event of female adolescence.

When someone with undiagnosed CAIS or PAIS, another undiagnosed XY DSD - or an undiagnosed female health condition like Turner syndrome or premature ovarian failure - gets further medical evaluations to figure out why they've reached their mid or late teens without going through menarche, they will undergo genetic sex testing, hormone testing, imaging of the internal organs and a thorough physical exam from head to toe performed in a "hands on" way by a gynecologist, including the close inspection of the outer genitals and the internal exam known colloquialy as a "full pelvic." All of which will enable the HCPs involved to determine with certainty whether a teenage patient in this sort of scenario actually is male or female.

In fact, if a the person being examined has a male DSD including CAIS, the gynecologist will find early on that doing a a "full pelvic" in the normal and customary way is not possible. Because for a full pelvic gynecological exam to be done in the normal way, it's necessary for the person being examined to have a full-length vagina that can accommodate a speculum and is connected to a cervix and uterus at the far end, and which the HCP can reach into with his her/his hand in order to palpate the Fallopian tubes and ovaries. That's not possible in the case of individuals with CAIS, because they only have the bottom two-thirds of a vagina. Their vagina has a blind ending as well, because they don't have a cervix or uterus. And they don't have any Fallopian tubes or ovaries either.

I can't wait until he objects to being labelled heterosexual.

Why do we have to cater to woke language? Liberals have claimed the term straight is offensive.

Another lengthy post that does not address the question I asked.

Did Alicia compete in the wrong category when she was a varsity rower in high school? Was she a "cheater"?

If almost every time an athlete "fails" a sex verification tests, it leads to the athlete getting harassed and vilified, then how do you account for what happened with the 8 athletes in women's events at the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games that the testing determined were XY with DSDs that only occur in males (AIS and XY 5-ARD)? I don't recall any of those athletes being harassed or vilified. To this day, their names have never been made public. Which is as it should be.

If you know of press accounts that show otherwise, please provide some links. Coz I don't believe that any of those athletes had their privacy violated, and ended up being harassed and vilified like you allege.

When women's alpine skiing World Cup champion Erik/a Schinnegger got booted off the the Austrian national ski team after failing a sex chromosome test in the runup to the 1968 Winter Olympics, Schinnegger wasn't harassed or vilified, either. Austrian sports officials did unceremoniously dump the poor kid at the time. The men in charge of the Austrian ski team and national Olympic committee treated Schinnegger abysmally a couple of years later when he wanted to rejoin the Austrian national team as Erik and compete in men's skiing. But AFAIK, Schinnegger wasn't harrassed by members of the public or vilified in the press for being one of the first world-class athletes in women's competition to "fail" the mandatory sex testing that the IOC instituted for competitors in the women's category in 1967.

Since then, Schinnegger has earned a reputation as a class act who managed to deal gracefully with a crushing blow that brought his career in elite sports to a sudden and wholly unexpected end when he was just 18 and he was on the cusp of achieving greatness in alpine skiing that would have put him on par with Jean-Claude Killy. Indeed, over the years, Schinnegger has come to be regarded as heroic figure.

Here we go again with your faux science. We've been all through this so I won't put the actual science up here again. You are so tiresome and foolish.