Side question, if someone works a full-time job, should they still be "poor" or should people who work full-time be able to make a living wage?
If not, then why would anyone take these jobs? I understand (and agree) with you that they are easy jobs in terms of the educational level needed to do them, but it seems like it is possible to work full time and still be poor. That feels weird to me.
Are we okay with that? Work 40 hours a week, do a good job at work each day, and still be poor?
Most baristas are neither bread winners for the family nor are they trying to earn a living. It’s a good college or high school job that pays $20/hr+ with tips. The people who truly work there for a career (5%) will eventually move up to be assistant managers, managers, regional managers, or franchisees.
I worked at McDonalds actually as a sixteen year old (best thing that could’ve ever happened to me) and then delivered pizzas all through college and even after to help pay for school. Never demanded a “livable wage.” People who aren’t cut out for traditional school can make enormous money as plumbers, electricians, medical sonographers, etc. Or working for UPS. I just had a young looking 55-year old come out the other day to replace my garage door. He told me it was his second to last day, that he had been with the company since age 18 and was retiring with a fat pension.
There are all kinds of situations like this. One of my kids works at a pizza place right now making $19/hr with tips, but it’s an extra money job. It’s not a career. And I would completely discourage her from ever being part of a union in such a low skilled and not dangerous position. Ludicrous.
You are someone who comes from affluence and you are an ignorant smug boomer completely out of touch with the modern economy. When you worked at McDonald's and at a pizza place, your purchasing power and wages were significantly higher than the modern equivalent and school was way less expensive. Very few plumbers or electricians make "enormous money" that's an ignorant meme very out of touch with the trades that affluent republicans love to circulate on facebook and X. Pensions hardly exist anymore, they've disappeared thanks to private equity and endless cost cutting. They did exist a long time ago in abundance, so the fact this 55 year old has one proves absolutely nothing! Modern UPS is a horrible job.
One more example and then I’m out of this thread -
A buddy’s newly minted college educated daughter, who actually worked at a boutique coffee shop in college making $22 +/- per hour with tips (no clue if these got reported or not) just got a job at a brand financial services company making $26 per hour in a HCOL city. Has to sit in the seat for six months taking licensing exams only before she can even start working. I’m sure she will get a dollar an hour raise once she passes all the exams (~ 30% of new employees fail and will not move on with the company, according to this guy).
So, basically, college educated at a fairly expensive institution (but, again, why anyone would pay close to $50-60k per year for college at ANY college completely confounds me), has to spend six more months studying and passing licensing exams, all to work in an entry level job making barely more than a barista who can learn the entire job in a few days. So, who is the underpaid person?
The difference is, the coffee job was never meant to be a profession and the corporate job will allow career progression. Any “career” barista could easily become a bartender if they want to make good money with no barriers to entry.
Most baristas are neither bread winners for the family nor are they trying to earn a living. It’s a good college or high school job that pays $20/hr+ with tips. The people who truly work there for a career (5%) will eventually move up to be assistant managers, managers, regional managers, or franchisees.
I worked at McDonalds actually as a sixteen year old (best thing that could’ve ever happened to me) and then delivered pizzas all through college and even after to help pay for school. Never demanded a “livable wage.” People who aren’t cut out for traditional school can make enormous money as plumbers, electricians, medical sonographers, etc. Or working for UPS. I just had a young looking 55-year old come out the other day to replace my garage door. He told me it was his second to last day, that he had been with the company since age 18 and was retiring with a fat pension.
There are all kinds of situations like this. One of my kids works at a pizza place right now making $19/hr with tips, but it’s an extra money job. It’s not a career. And I would completely discourage her from ever being part of a union in such a low skilled and not dangerous position. Ludicrous.
You are someone who comes from affluence and you are an ignorant smug boomer completely out of touch with the modern economy. When you worked at McDonald's and at a pizza place, your purchasing power and wages were significantly higher than the modern equivalent and school was way less expensive. Very few plumbers or electricians make "enormous money" that's an ignorant meme very out of touch with the trades that affluent republicans love to circulate on facebook and X. Pensions hardly exist anymore, they've disappeared thanks to private equity and endless cost cutting. They did exist a long time ago in abundance, so the fact this 55 year old has one proves absolutely nothing! Modern UPS is a horrible job.
Funny how the reflective, knee jerk response from your generation is we all must be Boomers. Nope, I’m actually quite a bit younger than a boomer, came from a very middle class family and my wife came from abject poverty. But we both went deep in to debt to pursue much higher education and never had a handout along the way. It can be done for people who are willing to do the work and quit whining about how unfair life is.
So you don’t have an answer on what would happen to the price of their products if they doubled the employee’s wages?
Whatever the market will bear.
Starbucks is a publicly traded company. The shareholders are not going to be okay with drastically increasing the company’s expenses with no assumption of increased revenues.
If you can’t live on 40k a year, you are bad with money.
Are you living in 1995?
In Mass:
The median price of a house is over $500k.
Avg rent for a one bedroom is > $20k per year.
The cheapest new cars are over $20k/year.
The average cost of health insurance for a family of four in 2023 was approximately $23,968 per year.
You have to pay fed and state income taxes on your $40k plus Soc Sec and Medicare.
And you have deductions to your 401k.
Private colleges cost > $80k per year.
$7 per hour in 1995 is the equivalent of $14.50 today. Yet, my local McDonalds is starting people at $19 per hour. Hmmm. I worked there in the early 90s making $6.50.
I agree that private college is a waste of money unless you can get it at a public cost, which, by the way, any family only making $40 per hour can.
Anyone else tired of people wanting giant career type pay but not wanting to put in the investment on themselves to do it? Starbucks is not a career they should not make $80,000.
My background.
Military (8-years) disabled veteran now. Also completed a Bachelors and MSOL while on active duty. On active duty I averaged $75,000 to $85,000 a year.
Left the Military and took a 3 year presidential Govt internship.
Post Military
Year 1: $43,000 (pay cut of roughly -$42,000)
Year 2: $55,000 (still-$30,000)
Year 3: $69,000 (-$16,000)
@Year 4: (I finally reached my Military pay)
Year 4: $86,000 (finally made higher then Military career)
Year 5: $93,000 (Started MBA to compliment MSOL)
Year 6: $97,000
Year 7 : $103,000 (Finished MBA)
Year 8: $139,000 (Started PhD)
Year 9: $144,000
Year 10: $160,000
Side note:
Wife Started a student internship at Year 4 of my Govt Civ career.
She is now a GS11 and has completed 2 Masters Degrees herself and contributes with $93,000 a year in income. Out household income is $253,000 a year but with other investments and hobbies we bring in over $300,000.
So you got a free ride on the tax payer dime by exploiting the military welfare complex and you're trying to paint story about how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps?
Anyone else tired of people wanting giant career type pay but not wanting to put in the investment on themselves to do it? Starbucks is not a career they should not make $80,000.
My background.
Military (8-years) disabled veteran now. Also completed a Bachelors and MSOL while on active duty. On active duty I averaged $75,000 to $85,000 a year.
Left the Military and took a 3 year presidential Govt internship.
Post Military
Year 1: $43,000 (pay cut of roughly -$42,000)
Year 2: $55,000 (still-$30,000)
Year 3: $69,000 (-$16,000)
@Year 4: (I finally reached my Military pay)
Year 4: $86,000 (finally made higher then Military career)
Year 5: $93,000 (Started MBA to compliment MSOL)
Year 6: $97,000
Year 7 : $103,000 (Finished MBA)
Year 8: $139,000 (Started PhD)
Year 9: $144,000
Year 10: $160,000
Side note:
Wife Started a student internship at Year 4 of my Govt Civ career.
She is now a GS11 and has completed 2 Masters Degrees herself and contributes with $93,000 a year in income. Out household income is $253,000 a year but with other investments and hobbies we bring in over $300,000.
So you got a free ride on the tax payer dime by exploiting the military welfare complex and you're trying to paint story about how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps?
The amount of complete scum on this board amazes me. A free ride guy serves overseas comes back and clearly has worked his tail off. But because he is not running or living with mommy and daddy like all of you, he is getting a free ride? What free ride is he getting? What do you do sir? Let me guess a Starbucks barista or work at a running store. In your free time you and the 17 others that thought this comment was appropriate get together and complain about people that are successful in life! Complete losers!!!!
You are someone who comes from affluence and you are an ignorant smug boomer completely out of touch with the modern economy. When you worked at McDonald's and at a pizza place, your purchasing power and wages were significantly higher than the modern equivalent and school was way less expensive. Very few plumbers or electricians make "enormous money" that's an ignorant meme very out of touch with the trades that affluent republicans love to circulate on facebook and X. Pensions hardly exist anymore, they've disappeared thanks to private equity and endless cost cutting. They did exist a long time ago in abundance, so the fact this 55 year old has one proves absolutely nothing! Modern UPS is a horrible job.
Funny how the reflective, knee jerk response from your generation is we all must be Boomers. Nope, I’m actually quite a bit younger than a boomer, came from a very middle class family and my wife came from abject poverty. But we both went deep in to debt to pursue much higher education and never had a handout along the way. It can be done for people who are willing to do the work and quit whining about how unfair life is.
The thing is, though, you have a Boomer attitude. Why are you so threatened at the possibility that someone, somewhere, might have it easier than you - or in a world filled with as much technology as we have, that someone you view as "beneath" you even dare to expect that they might have it easier than you?
Sitting around complaining about how you worked so much harder than "kids these days" is just straight up stupid. Like, how insecure can you be? Because you know what all of that coming from abject poverty and never taking a handout got you? The answer is extreme defensiveness of wanting to come in to a running message board and put all of us in place, for threatening your fragile ego by daring to complain.
Working hard gets you nothing if your goal is driven by a social hierarchy. I would take being poor and not worrying about whether people are going to worship me, over being successful and constantly trying to get strangers to buy into the delusion that I am somehow better than them. (And lest you draw a false equivalency, the two can be mutually exclusive.) The weakest and most cowardly flex is purchased status. You're not special, you're not important, and we don't owe you respect, adoration, or deference.
Funny how the reflective, knee jerk response from your generation is we all must be Boomers. Nope, I’m actually quite a bit younger than a boomer, came from a very middle class family and my wife came from abject poverty. But we both went deep in to debt to pursue much higher education and never had a handout along the way. It can be done for people who are willing to do the work and quit whining about how unfair life is.
The thing is, though, you have a Boomer attitude. Why are you so threatened at the possibility that someone, somewhere, might have it easier than you - or in a world filled with as much technology as we have, that someone you view as "beneath" you even dare to expect that they might have it easier than you?
Sitting around complaining about how you worked so much harder than "kids these days" is just straight up stupid. Like, how insecure can you be? Because you know what all of that coming from abject poverty and never taking a handout got you? The answer is extreme defensiveness of wanting to come in to a running message board and put all of us in place, for threatening your fragile ego by daring to complain.
Working hard gets you nothing if your goal is driven by a social hierarchy. I would take being poor and not worrying about whether people are going to worship me, over being successful and constantly trying to get strangers to buy into the delusion that I am somehow better than them. (And lest you draw a false equivalency, the two can be mutually exclusive.) The weakest and most cowardly flex is purchased status. You're not special, you're not important, and we don't owe you respect, adoration, or deference.
A boomer's attitude is a compliment, a generation that actually worked incredibly hard to get ahead! The generation today wants a handout they expect things to just be given to them it is disgusting! They see six figure salaries and don't want to do the required work to get there!
Side question, if someone works a full-time job, should they still be "poor" or should people who work full-time be able to make a living wage?
If not, then why would anyone take these jobs? I understand (and agree) with you that they are easy jobs in terms of the educational level needed to do them, but it seems like it is possible to work full time and still be poor. That feels weird to me.
Are we okay with that? Work 40 hours a week, do a good job at work each day, and still be poor?
define poor
The working definition for me is simple:
People in poverty do not know how they are going to make ends meet, particularly regarding food, housing, and health care.
The stress of always being right at the edge of a financial cliff is always on their minds.
Essentials are "juggled" from month to month because there is never enough money to cover all the family's needs.
But I think that if housing, food, and health care were affordable, I wouldn't care half as much about people being "broke" in other areas. People don't have to be "rich" to be happy. But they do need a home, food, and access to health care.
I don't care if cars, cell phone bills, make-up, TVs, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, streaming subscriptions, junk food, fashion, tattoos, jewelry, concert tickets, etc. cost a million bucks. Those things are luxuries. I don't feel an obligation to make those things affordable for everybody. Sorry, some people shouldn't be spending $80 on a pair of jeans or $100 on a concert ticket. If you are poor, and you are doing that, you are your own worst enemy.
That said, we have to get food, housing, and health care costs under control for the sake of our society (if not for the people who are directly suffering the high costs of living).
If you are an adult making minimum wage you need to learn some skills. You want more money, learn something that would benefit society. Minimum wage jobs are for teenagers to learn proper work etiquette, not for people who offer nothing of value.
They are not offering "nothing of value." If that were the case, these jobs wouldn't exist.
They are offering "something" that Starbucks values: a workforce who can maintain the physical space, clean the tables, take out the garbage, etc. If you reduced Starbucks to a fancy vending machine, Americans wouldn't buy even half as much coffee.
Half the coffee they sell is just an excuse to sit in a chair and read emails or talk to a friend. Without the employees, you could still have the coffees (thanks to the machine) but you couldn't have the physical space that is so popular.
Starbucks is a publicly traded company. The shareholders are not going to be okay with drastically increasing the company’s expenses with no assumption of increased revenues.
Starbucks is a publicly traded company. The shareholders are not going to be okay with drastically increasing the company’s expenses with no assumption of increased revenues.
So shareholders matter but employees don't.
Got it
Where did I say that? I told you what happens in reality. Do you realize that any CEO that proposed your plan would just be removed by the board and replaced by someone who wasn’t going to crater the shareholder value? Or do you live in fantasy land?
Funny how the reflective, knee jerk response from your generation is we all must be Boomers. Nope, I’m actually quite a bit younger than a boomer, came from a very middle class family and my wife came from abject poverty. But we both went deep in to debt to pursue much higher education and never had a handout along the way. It can be done for people who are willing to do the work and quit whining about how unfair life is.
The thing is, though, you have a Boomer attitude. Why are you so threatened at the possibility that someone, somewhere, might have it easier than you - or in a world filled with as much technology as we have, that someone you view as "beneath" you even dare to expect that they might have it easier than you?
Sitting around complaining about how you worked so much harder than "kids these days" is just straight up stupid. Like, how insecure can you be? Because you know what all of that coming from abject poverty and never taking a handout got you? The answer is extreme defensiveness of wanting to come in to a running message board and put all of us in place, for threatening your fragile ego by daring to complain.
Working hard gets you nothing if your goal is driven by a social hierarchy. I would take being poor and not worrying about whether people are going to worship me, over being successful and constantly trying to get strangers to buy into the delusion that I am somehow better than them. (And lest you draw a false equivalency, the two can be mutually exclusive.) The weakest and most cowardly flex is purchased status. You're not special, you're not important, and we don't owe you respect, adoration, or deference.
Yeah, evidently you can’t read either. I’m not threatened by any of it nor do I think any of these people are “beneath me.” Already acknowledged I worked at McDonalds once upon a time and delivered pizzas all through college. I wasn’t above those jobs now was I. I am very grateful for them and I learned from them.
I’m simply saying you can stay perpetually aggrieved and victimized by the man or you can improve your lot in life. It’s your choice. Again, never before in the history of this country have workers had more rights than they do right now, and people are wealthier on a relative scale than they’ve ever been at any point.
But, if you want to choose to stay oppressed and angry and find culpability with anyone else but yourself, then that is your free will. Today’s 25 year olds just are not built like the 25 year olds from even 25 years ago. It’s quite incredible, a de-evolution if you will. Criticizing the military guy when no way would you survive the military yourself, or even bother to consider serving.
You are someone who comes from affluence and you are an ignorant smug boomer completely out of touch with the modern economy. When you worked at McDonald's and at a pizza place, your purchasing power and wages were significantly higher than the modern equivalent and school was way less expensive. Very few plumbers or electricians make "enormous money" that's an ignorant meme very out of touch with the trades that affluent republicans love to circulate on facebook and X. Pensions hardly exist anymore, they've disappeared thanks to private equity and endless cost cutting. They did exist a long time ago in abundance, so the fact this 55 year old has one proves absolutely nothing! Modern UPS is a horrible job.
Funny how the reflective, knee jerk response from your generation is we all must be Boomers. Nope, I’m actually quite a bit younger than a boomer, came from a very middle class family and my wife came from abject poverty. But we both went deep in to debt to pursue much higher education and never had a handout along the way. It can be done for people who are willing to do the work and quit whining about how unfair life is.
I agree with you about the fact that there are ways out of poverty for millions of smart people who are able to hustle, work hard, move up, get educated, and forego some "fun now" for long-term goals.
But there are also many more millions of people who are just simply below average. They are below average in terms of motivation, family support, mental health, IQ, soft-skills, and work ethic.
You can hate on those "losers" (as another poster called them) but that is cruel and unkind. People don't choose to be below average. They are below average. It is a numbers game. Half the US population is below average by definition.
How should those people live? If you "don't care" then you should expect to have tons of angry, ignorant, poor, drugged out, unhappy, bad parents, and under-employed people in your town. I don't want to live in that kind of society.
That is why we have to figure out a way for below average people to get along in society. You can't just tell everyone to be above average. That doesn't work.
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