No we are not. The American education system is a joke and rightfully so. We are like dead last among first world countries in every category of education. Americans are less likely to be able to evaluate things like the effects of tariffs for themselves.
That’s a very specific definition of “smart”. One could give you a zillion other reasons for why Americans are smart or for that matter dumb. You probably have no idea how many stupid people exist everywhere on the planet.
FWIW, the American education system at the graduate level is the single best in the world if you had to pick one.
Well I was unclear there but the main point of education is teaching you to think. All that math stuff I remember hating but it taught me how to think about things. People in other countries are much better at that because education is taken more seriously. I agree that at the graduate level America is heads and shoulder above the rest however most people don't get a college degree and the ones that do often have 6 figure debt.
First off, for anyone that doesn't know, tariffs are NOT a tax that you can charge to other countries. They're a tax on American companies that do business with other countries. I repeat: they are literally a tax on American companies, full stop.
Trump has explicitly said "tariffs are a tax on foreign countries", and "we're going to be taking in trillions of dollars from China by charging them tariffs". imho this is his farthest fetching lie, because he's talking about trillions of dollars, where we'd literally be taking in zero.
The closest I've heard anyone in the Media come to calling him out on this is when they say "Trump's tariffs hurt American consumers". Normally they just say "Trump's tariffs on <x country>" which they know will lead viewers to believe him.
This leaves many voters still believing that Trump is able to to charge taxes to China/Mexico/Canada. The fact that no one seems willing to just say "he's lying, that's not how tariffs work at all, we're not taking in ANY money from China", is a problem.
If you want to educate your friends a bit about this, and for American companies to not get taxed for no reason, point them to this Investopedia article explaining the basics of tariffs (see the part where it says "Tariffs are paid by domestic consumers and not the exporting country"), so that SOMEONE can start holding Trump accountable for his unchecked lies:
You lefties screech about the rich and whine about them "paying their fair share" yet when the scary orange man gives the rich this very opportunity you immediately abandon your so called principles and revert to attacking the scary orange man.
When Apple has a 25% profit margin because they're making their products in China using slave labor (where they literally put nets around the buildings because so many people were jumping from the buildings rather than work another moment under those conditions).
You class warfare morons should be cheering an opportunity to stick it to corrupt corporations like Apple.
It hurts corporations slightly. It hurts middle and lower class Americans SUBSTANTIALLY. Do you know that corporations can raise prices to adjust for tariffs. Workers cant adjust their wages. That is the key difference in deciding who will be harmed by tariffs.
Several simple examples of why "Trump economics " tariffs hurt USA consumers.
1) When you go to Wal-Mart and pay 60% more for your case of beer you'll finally realize how stupid you are.
2) when "Trump economics" corporate 30% tax breaks are granted you will NOT receive a 30% pay increase at your job working the fry machine. Rather shareholders and CEO of McDonalds will receive huge bonuses.Trickle down never worked during Reagan years.
3) when we have no immigrants to help harvest our crops and work in meat packing industry there will be no food and inflation. Think of the peanut harvest scenario a few years ago.
4) Gas prices will go up because Texas oil companies will have a monopoly on gas prices due to no EV's, solar, wind or fusion alt energy.
5) price of car will be out of reach not just because of "local content" but also UAW line worker will demand a 60% pay increase.
My hope is our economy will go into a terrible depression. Like other past protectionalism economies.
Our global economy is a symbiotic relationship with each other. Its not my fault you have a high school education working at Wal-Mart.
1) Wal-Mart destroyed TENS OF THOUSANDS of small businesses in America. Companies like Wal-Mart are why it takes 2 incomes to survive in America now.
2) Trickle down has always worked. The poor in America aren't obese with cell phones and cable television for no reason.
3) We don't need 5+ MILLION illegals every year to pick lettuce. We certainly don't need their millions of anchor babies to do anything.
4) Oil is a global commodity. If Texas did that companies would just buy oil from other states or other countries. Competition is a beautiful thing.
5) The UAW already completely destroyed the auto industry.
Anyone hoping for a depression is a f*cking idiot. People you lie about caring about will suffer right along with the people you want to punish for disagreeing with you.
Buy oil from other countries? With tariffs that oil will be more expensive. Trump gave billions worth of tax breaks to companies like Wal-Mart. Trickle down has never worked. Safe to say you have never wanted for anything because the poor in America are struggling a lot. How much money you have decides how far you plan ahead. Millions are trying to figure out how to survive to the next day in what was once the most prosperous economy in the world.
Your actual three points are fine (and there are many more nuanced pros and cons to tariffs) but your opening sentence and last para sound naive. Tariffs have always been used, literally for thousands of years, as an economic instrument in international trade and will continue to be used when deemed strategically useful. That is how the “free market” at the geopolitical level is designed to work.
Trade aggressions are better than military aggressions and are inevitable and it’s naive to think otherwise. Sure, world peace and motherhood and apple pie would be nice, but that ain’t realpolitik.
you and I both know what I'm talking about - the radically higher tariffs proposed by the Republican party as an ending to the post WW2 order of relatively small tariffs and ever more free trade pacts among nations.
You are being pedantic rather than well-meaning.
In the post WW2 period we had ever more free trade and no big wars among participants. That was really good. (but sure, there have always been relatively low tariffs) Now because of the Republican Party we're separating out into enemy camps, not understanding that it's not a zero sum game we all can and have prospered from. This will not end well, and will likely end in big war as we stop trusting each other.
You can call it pedantic but I am fundamentally disagreeing with your “tariffs are stupid” point. As for who is responsible and post-WW2 wars, it’s the US and NATO that is the biggest bully and culprit on the international stage. We are arguably a reason for other countries to be super wary of us and find ways to shield themselves from the geopolitical bully we are.
You can blame the Republican Party all you want (and I truly don’t care about partisan loyalty), but geopolitics is not an area where it matters which party is in power. FWIW, even on tariffs, Biden retained most of Trump’s.
1) Wal-Mart destroyed TENS OF THOUSANDS of small businesses in America. Companies like Wal-Mart are why it takes 2 incomes to survive in America now.
2) Trickle down has always worked. The poor in America aren't obese with cell phones and cable television for no reason.
3) We don't need 5+ MILLION illegals every year to pick lettuce. We certainly don't need their millions of anchor babies to do anything.
4) Oil is a global commodity. If Texas did that companies would just buy oil from other states or other countries. Competition is a beautiful thing.
5) The UAW already completely destroyed the auto industry.
Anyone hoping for a depression is a f*cking idiot. People you lie about caring about will suffer right along with the people you want to punish for disagreeing with you.
Buy oil from other countries? With tariffs that oil will be more expensive. Trump gave billions worth of tax breaks to companies like Wal-Mart. Trickle down has never worked. Safe to say you have never wanted for anything because the poor in America are struggling a lot. How much money you have decides how far you plan ahead. Millions are trying to figure out how to survive to the next day in what was once the most prosperous economy in the world.
The US is still far and away the most prosperous economy in the world.
The problem is the wealth gap. If you want to see where the wealth gap is largest take a look at the blue hell holes like California. If you're not just virtue signaling and you actually care about the poor the last thing you should be doing is voting Democrat. Democrat policies keep people poor by design.
We had the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Lowering the corporate tax rate to be more in line with the corporations were are competing against is just good common sense.
You lefties screech about the rich and whine about them "paying their fair share" yet when the scary orange man gives the rich this very opportunity you immediately abandon your so called principles and revert to attacking the scary orange man.
When Apple has a 25% profit margin because they're making their products in China using slave labor (where they literally put nets around the buildings because so many people were jumping from the buildings rather than work another moment under those conditions).
You class warfare morons should be cheering an opportunity to stick it to corrupt corporations like Apple.
It hurts corporations slightly. It hurts middle and lower class Americans SUBSTANTIALLY. Do you know that corporations can raise prices to adjust for tariffs. Workers cant adjust their wages. That is the key difference in deciding who will be harmed by tariffs.
There's more than 1 corporation. The one that has the lowest price will be the one that gets the business.
If Apple jacks it's price up 25% go get a Samsung.
you and I both know what I'm talking about - the radically higher tariffs proposed by the Republican party as an ending to the post WW2 order of relatively small tariffs and ever more free trade pacts among nations.
You are being pedantic rather than well-meaning.
In the post WW2 period we had ever more free trade and no big wars among participants. That was really good. (but sure, there have always been relatively low tariffs) Now because of the Republican Party we're separating out into enemy camps, not understanding that it's not a zero sum game we all can and have prospered from. This will not end well, and will likely end in big war as we stop trusting each other.
You can call it pedantic but I am fundamentally disagreeing with your “tariffs are stupid” point. As for who is responsible and post-WW2 wars, it’s the US and NATO that is the biggest bully and culprit on the international stage. We are arguably a reason for other countries to be super wary of us and find ways to shield themselves from the geopolitical bully we are.
You can blame the Republican Party all you want (and I truly don’t care about partisan loyalty), but geopolitics is not an area where it matters which party is in power. FWIW, even on tariffs, Biden retained most of Trump’s.
Sounds like we are agreed that nato and the us are responsible for the greatest surge of wealth and prosperity and lifespan extension in human history, 1945-2024.
Partly from science, but also from nato and the us creating system of rules and norms that have greatly raised living standards.
id like to keep this going. Unfortunately the Republican Party does not
This post was edited 57 seconds after it was posted.
I still don't know why you are posting in this thread if you aren't interested in trump's position or future intent but to each their own.
I don’t care or need to explain why, but urge you to learn to read and quote my precise and specific sentences like I instructed you earlier in post #70. The above is a good example of lazy reading. It’s not something I claimed.
Dude, your post #41... this is your first sentence->> "I have no interest or position on Trump’s future intent." Lazy read that... lolz
Trumps tariff on washing machines cost the consumer $1.5bn, it created 1800 new jobs which raked in the government $82m in taxes and tariffs. That means for every one job created, it cost the consumer $815,000 to create that one job.
And when the tariff was implemented, US manufactured washing machines didn't stay at the previous price or drop, the cost of the US washing machines actually increased significantly due to the loss of competition and demand outstripping supply. Any financially literate person can see how dumb this is
The argument bhah makes is that tariffs are a tax on China. Then later argues they are not literally a tax on China, but have the exact same effect as a tax on China because China is harmed, the US gov't has more tax revenue, some local industry may have revenues increased.
This obviously ignores many important details, including - definitions of words - tax laws, cash flows, financial accounting - add'l US tax revenue is not paid by China in either argument, nor anything equivalent to that - US consumers now have to pay tax revenue from increased prices, which would not be the case if China pays the tax revenue - sourcing can go to the next best bargain, i.e. another importer, which also causes increased costs to US corporations and US consumers - China and other countries respond by imposing retaliatory tariffs, which also hurt US corporations and US consumers I'm sure there are more details but hey, China is being taxed! But, like, not literally taxed! But tomato/tomahto!
You can't disagree. If you do, you are stupid and your reading comprehension is bad. LOL.
Your reading comprehension appears to have slightly improved, but only very slightly so. Continue applying yourself diligently. And feel free to jump up and down that it’s not literally a tax because the US can’t tax China; that’s a very smart and deep and meaningful point in your arsenal.
Still doesn’t sound like you are disagreeing with anything objectively refutable that I said.
bhah: "gibberish, gibberish, gibberish" bhah: "doesn't sound like you are disagreeing with me"
That’s a very specific definition of “smart”. One could give you a zillion other reasons for why Americans are smart or for that matter dumb. You probably have no idea how many stupid people exist everywhere on the planet.
FWIW, the American education system at the graduate level is the single best in the world if you had to pick one.
Well I was unclear there but the main point of education is teaching you to think. All that math stuff I remember hating but it taught me how to think about things. People in other countries are much better at that because education is taken more seriously. I agree that at the graduate level America is heads and shoulder above the rest however most people don't get a college degree and the ones that do often have 6 figure debt.
I’ll grant that high school education in the US, syllabus-wise at least, is behind several Asian countries, but it’s a myth to think that people in any country are fundamentally smarter in math or other broad measures. It’s very unlikely that large groups of people are fundamentally smarter just like it’s unlikely that Africans are fundamentally dumber (wouldn’t you eagerly agree with the latter?)
Below are PISA scores evaluating general problem solving proficiency by country for countries that participate. The US is fine, somewhere in the middle of western countries. You have to also weigh the higher scores of Asian countries and other stats (like over 50% China is college educated and over 40% of Europe is with its state-sponsored higher ed) with a grain of salt: at the end of the day, the US still leads the world in economic productivity as well as scientific and technological progress, so how exactly are they systemically better?
Your reading comprehension appears to have slightly improved, but only very slightly so. Continue applying yourself diligently. And feel free to jump up and down that it’s not literally a tax because the US can’t tax China; that’s a very smart and deep and meaningful point in your arsenal.
Still doesn’t sound like you are disagreeing with anything objectively refutable that I said.
bhah: "gibberish, gibberish, gibberish" bhah: "doesn't sound like you are disagreeing with me"
I don’t care or need to explain why, but urge you to learn to read and quote my precise and specific sentences like I instructed you earlier in post #70. The above is a good example of lazy reading. It’s not something I claimed.
Dude, your post #41... this is your first sentence->> "I have no interest or position on Trump’s future intent." Lazy read that... lolz
I don’t care or need to explain why, but urge you to learn to read and quote my precise and specific sentences like I instructed you earlier in post #70. The above is a good example of lazy reading. It’s not something I claimed.
Dude, your post #41... this is your first sentence->> "I have no interest or position on Trump’s future intent." Lazy read that... lolz
The quote is correct. If you still can’t see the difference between what I wrote and what you attributed to me earlier even after I deigned to help you see it, I have to conclude that you just don’t have the capacity to be very precise with words. Not worth my time.
Several simple examples of why "Trump economics " tariffs hurt USA consumers.
1) When you go to Wal-Mart and pay 60% more for your case of beer you'll finally realize how stupid you are.
2) when "Trump economics" corporate 30% tax breaks are granted you will NOT receive a 30% pay increase at your job working the fry machine. Rather shareholders and CEO of McDonalds will receive huge bonuses.Trickle down never worked during Reagan years.
3) when we have no immigrants to help harvest our crops and work in meat packing industry there will be no food and inflation. Think of the peanut harvest scenario a few years ago.
4) Gas prices will go up because Texas oil companies will have a monopoly on gas prices due to no EV's, solar, wind or fusion alt energy.
5) price of car will be out of reach not just because of "local content" but also UAW line worker will demand a 60% pay increase.
My hope is our economy will go into a terrible depression. Like other past protectionalism economies.
Our global economy is a symbiotic relationship with each other. Its not my fault you have a high school education working at Wal-Mart.
1) Wal-Mart destroyed TENS OF THOUSANDS of small businesses in America. Companies like Wal-Mart are why it takes 2 incomes to survive in America now.
2) Trickle down has always worked. The poor in America aren't obese with cell phones and cable television for no reason.
3) We don't need 5+ MILLION illegals every year to pick lettuce. We certainly don't need their millions of anchor babies to do anything.
4) Oil is a global commodity. If Texas did that companies would just buy oil from other states or other countries. Competition is a beautiful thing.
5) The UAW already completely destroyed the auto industry.
Anyone hoping for a depression is a f*cking idiot. People you lie about caring about will suffer right along with the people you want to punish for disagreeing with you.
I'll bite:
1. You're not wrong about Walmart. But, it succeeded by creating economies via increased scale and improved supply chain logistics-- in other words, via the pristine logic of capitalist innovation, of which I assume you approve. As for the thousands of small business destroyed, isn't that what Schumpeter referred to as "creative destruction", another essential feature of capitalist development? The employment those small businesses provided likely didn't pay any better than Walmart to begin with, AND, anyone working for them did not have cheaper goods from a place like Walmart to enable their incomes to go further. Again, the magic of capitalist logics at work.
2. You're right. Trickle down (supply side, growth first) economics don't work to actually improve them lives of workers. And why should they have? That was never their intent. Their intent was to produce the best of all economic worlds via the above rationality, which is not necessarily a nice one for workers. But this does not mean that protectionism will meet the needs of American workers any more effectively, not least because it may increase the cost of living for wage earners without producing a commensurate or greater increase in employment and income. The point is, you're either in capitalism-- which means following its rules re: the centrality of markets-- or you're out. Tariffs and other forms of protectionism are affronts to market rationality.
3. We're about to find out just how central illegal immigrant labor is to the 21st C US economy. (And please google that notorious socialist Milton Friedman on the value of illegal workers to the US economy). In fact, I'm calling it right now: Trump's "mass deportation" will carve out an exemption for agricultural laborers. It's either that or the threatened US tariffs on Mexico (supplier of 50% of the US's fresh produce) are a complete bluff. Because you can't have both deportation of agricultural workers and potentially more expensive produce from Mexico (most Mexican producers would probably go out of business before trying to eat a 25% tariff. No way they have the margins for that.) A tariff on Mexican produce will only work (i.e. in a non-inflationary way) if US domestic producers can scale up and claim the market share lost by Mexican producers-- hard to do when their workforce is being deported wholesale!
4. The obvious alternatives to Texas oil would be Canadian or Venezuelan. We'll see about Venezuela, but Trump has threatened Canada with 25% across the board tariffs.
5. The US auto industry does what it does, which is to try to make a profit. History informs us that it will try to this with or without creating jobs for American workers. Industrial labor employment is ALWAYS doomed to obsolescence no matter what workers do. And since workers are not protected from the loss of their employment to offshoring or automation, it makes the most sense for them to get as much as they can while they still can. This is a catch-22, but then everything about capitalistics is a catch-22.
You're not stupid. You are just caught up in the very real bind of trying to defend both nationalism in its M@GA instantiation AND capitalism. No kind of conservative fusionism (this one between the interests of capitalist oligarchs and trad Catholic Natcons) can solve capitalism's basic contradictions.
As for sticking it to the likes of Apple, it's interesting that you would imply the best way to do this is through tariffs on Chinese goods rather than through the much more obvious way of taxing or breaking them up entirely, which I can't find anywhere in the M@GA agenda, interestingly.
I still don't know why you are posting in this thread if you aren't interested in trump's position or future intent but to each their own.
I don’t care or need to explain why, but urge you to learn to read and quote my precise and specific sentences like I instructed you earlier in post #70. The above is a good example of lazy reading. It’s not something I claimed.
Please show me where I claimed I am not “interested in Trump’s position”. Then go get an actual education.
Uh, I mean this is the same dude that in his campaign lied to everyone about the primary reason so many people faced crippling inflation the last 2-3 years and the person running against him for office did nothing about that either so what's the big deal?
1) Wal-Mart destroyed TENS OF THOUSANDS of small businesses in America. Companies like Wal-Mart are why it takes 2 incomes to survive in America now.
2) Trickle down has always worked. The poor in America aren't obese with cell phones and cable television for no reason.
3) We don't need 5+ MILLION illegals every year to pick lettuce. We certainly don't need their millions of anchor babies to do anything.
4) Oil is a global commodity. If Texas did that companies would just buy oil from other states or other countries. Competition is a beautiful thing.
5) The UAW already completely destroyed the auto industry.
Anyone hoping for a depression is a f*cking idiot. People you lie about caring about will suffer right along with the people you want to punish for disagreeing with you.
I'll bite:
1. You're not wrong about Walmart. But, it succeeded by creating economies via increased scale and improved supply chain logistics-- in other words, via the pristine logic of capitalist innovation, of which I assume you approve. As for the thousands of small business destroyed, isn't that what Schumpeter referred to as "creative destruction", another essential feature of capitalist development? The employment those small businesses provided likely didn't pay any better than Walmart to begin with, AND, anyone working for them did not have cheaper goods from a place like Walmart to enable their incomes to go further. Again, the magic of capitalist logics at work.
2. You're right. Trickle down (supply side, growth first) economics don't work to actually improve them lives of workers. And why should they have? That was never their intent. Their intent was to produce the best of all economic worlds via the above rationality, which is not necessarily a nice one for workers. But this does not mean that protectionism will meet the needs of American workers any more effectively, not least because it may increase the cost of living for wage earners without producing a commensurate or greater increase in employment and income. The point is, you're either in capitalism-- which means following its rules re: the centrality of markets-- or you're out. Tariffs and other forms of protectionism are affronts to market rationality.
3. We're about to find out just how central illegal immigrant labor is to the 21st C US economy. (And please google that notorious socialist Milton Friedman on the value of illegal workers to the US economy). In fact, I'm calling it right now: Trump's "mass deportation" will carve out an exemption for agricultural laborers. It's either that or the threatened US tariffs on Mexico (supplier of 50% of the US's fresh produce) are a complete bluff. Because you can't have both deportation of agricultural workers and potentially more expensive produce from Mexico (most Mexican producers would probably go out of business before trying to eat a 25% tariff. No way they have the margins for that.) A tariff on Mexican produce will only work (i.e. in a non-inflationary way) if US domestic producers can scale up and claim the market share lost by Mexican producers-- hard to do when their workforce is being deported wholesale!
4. The obvious alternatives to Texas oil would be Canadian or Venezuelan. We'll see about Venezuela, but Trump has threatened Canada with 25% across the board tariffs.
5. The US auto industry does what it does, which is to try to make a profit. History informs us that it will try to this with or without creating jobs for American workers. Industrial labor employment is ALWAYS doomed to obsolescence no matter what workers do. And since workers are not protected from the loss of their employment to offshoring or automation, it makes the most sense for them to get as much as they can while they still can. This is a catch-22, but then everything about capitalistics is a catch-22.
You're not stupid. You are just caught up in the very real bind of trying to defend both nationalism in its M@GA instantiation AND capitalism. No kind of conservative fusionism (this one between the interests of capitalist oligarchs and trad Catholic Natcons) can solve capitalism's basic contradictions.
As for sticking it to the likes of Apple, it's interesting that you would imply the best way to do this is through tariffs on Chinese goods rather than through the much more obvious way of taxing or breaking them up entirely, which I can't find anywhere in the M@GA agenda, interestingly.
Nationalism is just common sense.
As for the rest fair trade is the objective not just free trade.
And no one wants unchecked capitalism.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
First off, for anyone that doesn't know, tariffs are NOT a tax that you can charge to other countries. They're a tax on American companies that do business with other countries. I repeat: they are literally a tax on American companies, full stop.
Trump has explicitly said "tariffs are a tax on foreign countries", and "we're going to be taking in trillions of dollars from China by charging them tariffs". imho this is his farthest fetching lie, because he's talking about trillions of dollars, where we'd literally be taking in zero.
The closest I've heard anyone in the Media come to calling him out on this is when they say "Trump's tariffs hurt American consumers". Normally they just say "Trump's tariffs on " which they know will lead viewers to believe him.
This leaves many voters still believing that Trump is able to to charge taxes to China/Mexico/Canada. The fact that no one seems willing to just say "he's lying, that's not how tariffs work at all, we're not taking in ANY money from China", is a problem.
If you want to educate your friends a bit about this, and for American companies to not get taxed for no reason, point them to this Investopedia article explaining the basics of tariffs (see the part where it says "Tariffs are paid by domestic consumers and not the exporting country"), so that SOMEONE can start holding Trump accountable for his unchecked lies:
You lefties screech about the rich and whine about them "paying their fair share" yet when the scary orange man gives the rich this very opportunity you immediately abandon your so called principles and revert to attacking the scary orange man.
When Apple has a 25% profit margin because they're making their products in China using slave labor (where they literally put nets around the buildings because so many people were jumping from the buildings rather than work another moment under those conditions).
You class warfare morons should be cheering an opportunity to stick it to corrupt corporations like Apple.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.