I've got a 21 y.o. and a 17 y.o. here on Long Island, and have definitely observed this trend. However, with the limited exception of a few who have gotten into Duke, Emory, Vandy, Rice, or Chapel Hill, these are middling students who don't have high career ambitions and are just looking to have fun. Not candidates for top tier NE schools anyway...
As a current Clemson employee, and I found this article interesting because our unit has four student interns, all from the Northeast—two from New Jersey, one from New York, and one from Maine. When I asked why they chose Clemson, they mentioned the milder winter, the strong sense of community, the sports culture, and a desire to experience something different from home. They're all great workers, and I appreciate the different perspectives they bring to our community. It's encouraging to see increased interest from various regions. In my experience, despite the stereotypes associated with different parts of the U.S., we're more alike than we are different
Alabama and Auburn give automatic scholarships to students with high GPAs and test scores. A full ride at Alabama is better than $90k per year tuition at Harvard.
My cousin's son grew up in NJ and ended up at Emory. He stayed in the south after graduation. I have also run across some young attorneys who migrated south from the NE. I think the main issue is that the meritocracy in the northeast is very stifling. In order to get in to an Ivy, you have to basically get all As, max out the AP credits, max out the standardized test scores and start a non profit that teaches truck drivers how to write haiku. If you don't get into an Ivy, you are immediately considered second rate and your job prospects are immediately limited in hyper competitive markets like corporate leadership, law, finance and medicine. And the second tier schools are all outrageously expensive private schools like Colgate, Tufts, BU, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, etc. While there are some very good public schools like William and Mary, Rutgers, UVA, etc., most of the public schools in the northeast are pretty bleak. They have lousy sports teams, cruddy campuses and fancy employers in the northeast will not even look at your resume if you have a U. Mass or SUNY on it.
In the south, you really can be free from that meritocracy. With the exception of some c-suite positions, most employers in the south are happy to have someone who went to Auburn, UGA, Clemson, etc. And the alumni networks from these schools can be a big help in landing a job or starting a business and finding clients. Getting in to southern schools is relatively easy compared to the Ivies and second tier schools. However, that is starting to change. At University of Texas, most of the seats are reserved for in-state students because you automatically get admitted if you finish in the top 10% of your high school. So, the out of state acceptance rate at UT is now about 10%. But there are all comers schools like University of Mississippi and pay to play schools like SMU, Texas Tech, etc.
Alabama and Auburn give automatic scholarships to students with high GPAs and test scores. A full ride at Alabama is better than $90k per year tuition at Harvard.
I don't know how Alabama and Auburn financial aid works, but that ain't how Harvard and its ilk work. It's strictly need-based, so if yo poor, yo ain't playing much, but if yo be rich, yo paying sticker price. Basically, you pay what you can afford.
My son goes to a $90,000-plus school, but we only pay $6,000 per year. No loans. No debt. The girl next door goes to Princeton. The mother was shocked when she learned how little they had to pay (and immediately called my wife to make sure she was reading it right).
I work at a public university. My kids can go to any in-state school tuition-free. My son got into the flagship school, but the "$90,000" college was a lot cheaper (factoring in room and board and fees).
One of the smartest people I know went to duke over a couple of mid-tier Ivy's.
Because Duke is substantially better than the Ivys in the 21st century. Duke provides an extremely challenging curriculum and graduates truly productive, educated members of society. Ivys naval gaze and argue about gender and micro offenses. No contest.
I’m being extremely snide. Your backwards social views harm women and children. Control is more important than health and safety to people like yourself.
Rather, it seems that you advocate controlling unborn or partially born children to death.
always hitting the same lies. Partial birth abortion doesn't existing and a fetus by definition is always "controlled" by someone else. Damn you're dumb. Which Southerb school did you attend?
Alabama and Auburn give automatic scholarships to students with high GPAs and test scores. A full ride at Alabama is better than $90k per year tuition at Harvard.
Thats the 'Desperate to make our school academically relevant' scholarship.
Alabama and Auburn give automatic scholarships to students with high GPAs and test scores. A full ride at Alabama is better than $90k per year tuition at Harvard.
Thats the 'Desperate to make our school academically relevant' scholarship.
And I doubt very much that they're full rides. Pretty much everyone everywhere receives a partial scholarship of sorts when accepted at a school.
Alabama and Auburn give automatic scholarships to students with high GPAs and test scores. A full ride at Alabama is better than $90k per year tuition at Harvard.
I don't know how Alabama and Auburn financial aid works, but that ain't how Harvard and its ilk work. It's strictly need-based, so if yo poor, yo ain't playing much, but if yo be rich, yo paying sticker price. Basically, you pay what you can afford.
My son goes to a $90,000-plus school, but we only pay $6,000 per year. No loans. No debt. The girl next door goes to Princeton. The mother was shocked when she learned how little they had to pay (and immediately called my wife to make sure she was reading it right).
I work at a public university. My kids can go to any in-state school tuition-free. My son got into the flagship school, but the "$90,000" college was a lot cheaper (factoring in room and board and fees).
amen. it was my personal experience the drive out price at my good LAC -- really my top 3 options, all private D3 types -- were better than the flagship state school that admitted me and offered a meh merit scholarship. and they had better student profiles, and wanted me to play sports there.
a lot of the discussion here assumes you pay sticker. if you can afford sticker why are you at clemson and not harvard with those resources. and if you're not paying sticker then it comes down to aid offers and as the poster said, some well-endowed schools are doing it without loans. and it was my counter-intuitive experience the better a school you chased, the better aid offers they made. it won't necessarily be called "academic scholarship" or be on "merit," but what people care about is the amount due on arrival. that and some do care about the debtload. my parents encouraged me to leave some less-amazing athletic scholarship and ho-hum academic schools in on the theory i would stand out and get money. my experience they made significantly worse offers because the school simply had less to give out and met less % need. they could basically offer the federal basics, pell, loans, that any school has, plus some partial academic and partial sports. and you'd add it up and you'd owe more than at the harder to get in schools. so, duh, i went there. which is probably the right academic choice anyway.
point being, full circle, i agree. i think it's really a question of politics or getting in. the same forces that have changed florida and GA tech from mediocre to just below ivy plus, have pushed a ton of ivy and nescac and uaa type schools towards 4.0+ kids with near 1600s. that and some of the name brand state schools like rutgers are not cheap. so particularly if daddy is paying and you aren't making harvard and your choice is like rutgers or clemson, clemson might make odd sense.
last point but as with many things regional and racial in this country, it took until maybe 1990 or so to really start re-integration in the south. blacks in suburbs and workplaces. northerners or westerners being willing to move south. i do feel like in the most recent decade the south, florida, texas, have started to regress racially, sexually, etc. what you feel like you see may reflect that it became a more welcoming place for a bit. if it starts getting rep again as a problem region then it may be less fashionable, or only attractive to trump families.
One of the smartest people I know went to duke over a couple of mid-tier Ivy's.
Because Duke is substantially better than the Ivys in the 21st century. Duke provides an extremely challenging curriculum and graduates truly productive, educated members of society. Ivys naval gaze and argue about gender and micro offenses. No contest.
Very true. Along with Vanderbilt and, maybe Rice, it’s certainly better than the bottom half of the Ivies, and this is a well known fact among college enrollment officers, some of whom I’ve talked with about this. Covid made this substantially worse as these most coveted schools went test optional and woke and accepted grade inflation ubiquitously.
Even a Georgia Tech is very highly regarded in engineering and computer science versus some of the “name brand” schools. And being in the honors programs at some of these state schools provides opportunities that kids on the lower rung of a lower tier Ivy may just not get…
The Hidden Ivies are called that for a reason. Do a search. They break it down by region. These are all phenomenal schools. Even in the south. If your kid can get substantial merit or need-based aid versus paying full go at an Ivy or Stanford, I think you would be stupid to pass that up. If you truly aren’t paying much at a HYP because of need, then, sure, that would be where you would go.
I can only speak for my child, but she attends a highly regarded university in the south while being engaged in all facets of student life, including football and basketball, great city life, great community, mild weather, and myriad research opportunities that she just may not have gotten at a Cornell, not to pick on any school. She couldn’t be happier or more well rounded. I wouldn’t put a price on that, even though we, luckily, did.
I don't know how Alabama and Auburn financial aid works, but that ain't how Harvard and its ilk work. It's strictly need-based, so if yo poor, yo ain't playing much, but if yo be rich, yo paying sticker price. Basically, you pay what you can afford.
My son goes to a $90,000-plus school, but we only pay $6,000 per year. No loans. No debt. The girl next door goes to Princeton. The mother was shocked when she learned how little they had to pay (and immediately called my wife to make sure she was reading it right).
I work at a public university. My kids can go to any in-state school tuition-free. My son got into the flagship school, but the "$90,000" college was a lot cheaper (factoring in room and board and fees).
amen. it was my personal experience the drive out price at my good LAC -- really my top 3 options, all private D3 types -- were better than the flagship state school that admitted me and offered a meh merit scholarship. and they had better student profiles, and wanted me to play sports there.
a lot of the discussion here assumes you pay sticker. if you can afford sticker why are you at clemson and not harvard with those resources. and if you're not paying sticker then it comes down to aid offers and as the poster said, some well-endowed schools are doing it without loans. and it was my counter-intuitive experience the better a school you chased, the better aid offers they made. it won't necessarily be called "academic scholarship" or be on "merit," but what people care about is the amount due on arrival. that and some do care about the debtload. my parents encouraged me to leave some less-amazing athletic scholarship and ho-hum academic schools in on the theory i would stand out and get money. my experience they made significantly worse offers because the school simply had less to give out and met less % need. they could basically offer the federal basics, pell, loans, that any school has, plus some partial academic and partial sports. and you'd add it up and you'd owe more than at the harder to get in schools. so, duh, i went there. which is probably the right academic choice anyway.
point being, full circle, i agree. i think it's really a question of politics or getting in. the same forces that have changed florida and GA tech from mediocre to just below ivy plus, have pushed a ton of ivy and nescac and uaa type schools towards 4.0+ kids with near 1600s. that and some of the name brand state schools like rutgers are not cheap. so particularly if daddy is paying and you aren't making harvard and your choice is like rutgers or clemson, clemson might make odd sense.
last point but as with many things regional and racial in this country, it took until maybe 1990 or so to really start re-integration in the south. blacks in suburbs and workplaces. northerners or westerners being willing to move south. i do feel like in the most recent decade the south, florida, texas, have started to regress racially, sexually, etc. what you feel like you see may reflect that it became a more welcoming place for a bit. if it starts getting rep again as a problem region then it may be less fashionable, or only attractive to trump families.
To answer at least one of your questions, some of us make too much money to qualify for any aid or grants but not so much that I’m just going to be fine paying $90,000 per year and subsidizing someone else’s kid, especially as I’ve already been a job creator and paid an exorbitant amount in taxes and these universities could use their massive endowments to make life easier on everyone really.
I have a kid who can go to a highly regarded university at $30-35,000 per year (merit) and get plenty of opportunity and stand out for medical school, while enjoying her time there, and, in the meantime, I can bank and invest the other $60,000 per year to help defray the cost of a medical school education. So, why would I not do that, even if my kid could’ve gotten into Dartmouth, for example?
All the rest of your speech sounds like typical liberal nonsense.
Thats the 'Desperate to make our school academically relevant' scholarship.
And I doubt very much that they're full rides. Pretty much everyone everywhere receives a partial scholarship of sorts when accepted at a school.
what often tends to be missing is grant money. like between a named scholarship and grant money the LACs i looked hardest at made it pretty cheap. if you are on aid then the loan and federal grant numbers tend to be identical from school to school, both public and private. ditto work study. it tends to be the scholarships and grants that differ. and some of that may reflect how bright or good an athlete you are, but some may reflect the school's resources. state schools, a really smart kid might be offered a ride, but if you have a 1600 and a 4.0 why aren't you at yale. now, that choice may be justifiable financially -- free school -- but it's a deliberate choice down the pecking order on ROI/name on the resume later on.
and a merely fairly smart kid will be offered a small partial. and that's about it. ditto weaker privates. and you will have a bigger gap than a good or great private that can offer scholarships and grants. and then it'll usually be, mom and dad can borrow. or you can pay.
but anyhow, if you are on aid, the big stat to look for before applying is % need met. and in a perfect world you get in a school that meets that need without loans. and like i said, my experience, they tended to be better rather than worse. if i had it to do again it would be all high % need met schools.
and i get for some daddy is paying but then my response is if daddy has those resources there has been some slippage if we're talking southern state schools and not ivy or ivy plus.
Interesting thing here, to me, is that if you go to a fancy Northeast school, you'll likely get something like a liberal arts education.
Whereas if you go to big state U - anywhere - getting anything like a liberal arts education is pretty unlikely. Possible, but more likely you'll major in business, marketing, communication, or a pre-professional degree. You have to make an affirmative push to get one.
If you believe in passing along the culture and knowledge of Western civilization like many conservatives say they do....this trend is not great.