SK, methinks you missed the point (again). Re-read the Coach's post.
SK, methinks you missed the point (again). Re-read the Coach's post.
Professor, methinks you missed the point (again). Re-read the Skuj's post.
Coach Todd wrote:
Silvio Salazar wrote:Okay coaches and all the rest we know that racing increases lactic acid obviously. I think it is good to know which intervals dispose this lactic acid more rapidly but I think it is better to know which intervals produce better racing times because thats' what we are interested in improving correct?
They are, of course, related. The ability to reduce blood acidity will affect racing times at certain distances. You really cannot talk about improving racing times without discussing the effect acidity has.
Me and a thousand others have drastically improved racing times without discussing the effect acidity has. I'm not saying that discussing acidity is a worthless activity, just not a prerequisite for improvement.
perspective wrote:
Me and a thousand others have drastically improved racing times without discussing the effect acidity has. I'm not saying that discussing acidity is a worthless activity, just not a prerequisite for improvement.
True, but if you want to maximize your potential, then knowledge of these kinds of things can be helpful.
what type of rest would be optimal for an 8x400 workout for a 800/1500 guy??
wouldn't it depend on what you're trying to accomplish w/ the workout? Coe might do a workout like that @ 800m GP w/ min rec's for lactate buffering. Then again someone else might want to do it w/ more rest to place more emphasis on another system.
Interesting discussion!
There is no single right answer to optimal rest between 8x400 for an 800/1500 guy.
30sec recovery, with each 400 at 3k pace, in January? Or maybe 2min recovery for faster than 1500 pace in June?
Cram says he liked shorter recovery always. Moorcroft seemed to nearly always prefer long recovery.
That reminds me of a good question: Moorcroft 5x1000m at around 2:25 pace, with 7min recovery. Anaerobic capacity? Anyone? Professor? :)
Still, who gives a f*&k? Do intervals sometimes. Stress the body. Make it all progressive. Peak at the right time.
the most important thing in the rest between reps is to keep jogging- active recovery is far more beneficial than a passive walking recovery in preventing the build up of H+ ions and lactate in the muscles. KEEP JOGGING!!
curious wrote:
Training for a 5k. There are people who swear that they can get a better workout off of a five minute rest and there are others who take it down to 60 seconds. I try to keep my rest between 90 sec. and 75 sec. With a shorter rest the efforts are slower. So which is better? Or is there a time for both? Five minutes seems excessive to me. With the short rest are you training the body to dispose of the lactate quicker or does it not work that way? It seems to me that the rest period is a huge component of a workout often overlooked. A lot of runners I talk to do a 200 or 400 in between intervals and have no idea how long the rest period was.
But Ovett used to lie on the ground inbetween his very intense 2x600! :)
I think it is important to keep loose and mobile. Too often I've seen people trying to jog inbetween very hard efoforts, and their jog looks like crap, because they are so tired. Walking is better, sometimes. Many runners feel guilty unless they are ALWAYS running during a session. "Stopping = bad." But I think the recovery should be exactly that....a recovery. Light jogging is very useful, but not always necessary imho.
Another concept to ponder:
2x600m in 1:30, several minutes rest.
6x200m in 30, 30 rest.
Which one is more anaerobically capacitating, and why?
I think this gets to the heart of the original post. Long recovery between very intense longer efforts is sometimes necessary. What time of year would be best for some 800s at 1500 pace? And what recovery would be absolutely needed between 800s at 1500 pace?
curious wrote:
Training for a 5k. There are people who swear that they can get a better workout off of a five minute rest and there are others who take it down to 60 seconds. I try to keep my rest between 90 sec. and 75 sec. With a shorter rest the efforts are slower. So which is better? Or is there a time for both? Five minutes seems excessive to me. With the short rest are you training the body to dispose of the lactate quicker or does it not work that way? It seems to me that the rest period is a huge component of a workout often overlooked. A lot of runners I talk to do a 200 or 400 in between intervals and have no idea how long the rest period was.
In my mind the point of a workout is to do 2 things:
1. Develop the runner physically so they improve and stay healthy through the entire season reaching their peak fitness at the right time.
2. Raise the confidence of the athlete so they enter the key events in a strong mental condition.
To accomplish these goals we tend to vary the length of the interval run at a particular pace as well as the proportional length of the recovery based on the time of the year. Early and mid season the goal is preparation, thus we want to be a bit undertrained and allow consistent work over a longer period of time to take hold. Longer, faster intervals w/ short rests or very fast, shorter length intervals w/ short rest = very hard on the body. The athlete will tolerate this type of schedule for a short amount of time, say a few weeks, then either plateau, tank or get hurt. This is why, in my experience, doing this type of work too soon in the year gets athletes in trouble. There's an appropriate time for this type of work and that's at the end of the season.
Examples
Early Season: Goal = preparation. We take proportionally shorter recoveries, but we also tend to keep the length of the intervals shorter as well.
Examples: 16 x 200 at 1500 w/ 100-200 jog or 6 x 1k at 5k w/ 400 jog.
Mid season: Goal continues to be preparation. We'll do longer intervals at race pace to progress fitness, but we'll compensate by allowing longer recoveries as well. Why? Because a 1600 at 5k pace is harder than a 1k at the same effort.
Example: 8 x 400 at 1500 w/ 400 jog. 4 x 1600 at 5k w/ 800 jog
End of the season. Goal = competition. When we are peaking fitness, we'll do the longer inetervals of the previous stage and shorten up the recoveries to closer simulate racing conditions.
Example: 8 x 400 at 60 w/ 60 sec standing or 4 x 1600 starting at 5k and getting faster each one w/ 400 jog.
Real life: This AM, the guys did 4 x 1600 at 5k w/ 800 jog + 4 x 200 at 1500 w/ 200 jog. Saturday calls for 8 x 400 at 1500 w/ 400 jog. Today was hard, but doable. In 4 weeks, they'll be looking at 4 x 1600 at 5k w/ 400 jog + 3 x 300 at 1500 w/ 100 jog on Wednesday, the next Saturday, they'll be facing 8 x 400 at 1500 w/ 60 seconds standing rest in prep for their big 1500's in May/June.
These workouts will be doable, but man they will not be easy. They'll take a ton of physical and emotional energy to accomplish. They are well aware in advance the workouts planned for the coming month. Once I make a big deal of the effort needed to hit specific workouts and the athlete hits them they prove to themselves they are at the fittest point of the season. They fear the workout, but hit it and walk away very tired, but smiling. This helps them be mentally ready for battle when it counts. This is probably the most important part of manupulating interval and recovery length through the season, have the hardest workouts scheduled at the end of the season. Start the season w/ 4 x 1600 at 5k w/ 60 seconds rest and where do you go the rest of the season?
BTW, I'm guessing in a month their bodies will have become better able to clear lactic acid in a month than it was say 8 weeks ago.
Joe
Joe - Exactly what this thread needed - the voice of reason and coaching experience. Thanks.
Skuj wrote:
Another concept to ponder:
2x600m in 1:30, several minutes rest.
6x200m in 30, 30 rest.
Which one is more anaerobically capacitating, and why?
The first one is an anaerobic capacity workout, probably for a 1500/1M guy. It fits all of the requirements: short distance, fast, and a small number of intervals. With anaerobic capacity you are emphasizing speed, which the first workout does better than the second.
[quote]ovett wrote:
the most important thing in the rest between reps is to keep jogging- active recovery is far more beneficial than a passive walking recovery in preventing the build up of H+ ions and lactate in the muscles. KEEP JOGGING!![quote]
Not necessarily. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If the goal is anaerobic efficiency (the original topic of this thread), then you do not want an active recovery. For this type of session, the buildup of H+ ions is desirable, not something to avoid.
Great post! Never thought of lactate having three separate qualities. How might a middle-distance runner sequence and prioritize the importance of training:
-blood lactate
-muscle lactate
-bicarbonate buffering
What Is Anerobic Capacity wrote:
Professor, methinks you missed the point (again). Re-read the Skuj's post.
Someone's confused, but it's not Professor.