What's the reason/s that high schoolers and collegiates are running so fast in the last couple of years.

I did not claim *all* of them are doping, but certainly more than before. In the 80s and 90s, all we knew was steroids would turn you into a yellow-eyed, muscle-bound sprinter. Now we know there are many “safer” alternatives for distance runners.

PEDs can take a kid from 9:1x territory (little to zero scholarship) to 8:4x territory (full scholarship) and below (see Arcadia). And since this is effectively the only way/time to earn tangible money in running as a male athlete, there is more incentive (motive) to use them.

Sorry loser, you lost the argument at your very first post. Your ignorance hijacks every thread you participate in.

And- there you go again.

Carbs

and Joe Biden

We also went through an era (late 80's into the 90's) when Runners World was transitioning from real runners to hobby joggers that they were pushing the less is more, run a marathon on 2 runs a week, stuff.

I was coaching then and we had all these parents who thought they were "real" runners because they could run a 5K (in 25:00) telling their kids not to run as much. That summer running for cross-country was bad they had to rest, etc etc

We're over that and more kids are running more miles. Recent results are amazing with their depth. I hope if pays off in the future- we need some kids deciding to become marathoners when they are 19-21 and build to that mileage.

No, they can’t. There’s a huge difference in top-end speed between 8:4x and 9:1x. PEDs are not going to make a 3.75 seconds per lap difference. Doping does not replace genetics.

Shoes help, but it's drugs. Duh. When there is no testing whatsoever, kids and parents conspire to maximize their potential for a D1 scholarship and NIL $$. Didn't some parents just go to prison for scamming their kid's test scores or for paying off colleges to get them in? Same thing here.

We are living in crazy times.

Paying off colleges and cheating on test scores is not comparable to messing around with a kids health. I highly doubt parents will play with their own kids health. Get help.

You do realize no brands make the old spikes anymore and they are pretty hard to find at this point. You have to find them on some sketchy site. The spikes that brands make that aren’t “super spikes” are 60-75 bucks are significantly worse than the old 160 non-super spike. At this point it’s more about accessibility and yeah you see someone run fast in something you’re going to want that thing. Many kids are staying healthy and consistent. A lot of others are betting on themselves I don’t really think the shoes are AS big of thing as everyone thinks. You throw that invite heat together and tell them the top 6 or whatever are going sub 8:40 they’re all gonna try to hang and be top 6. Lots of guys still in the race with 1k to go. Stop discrediting how hard these athletes work.

The most amusing reply of the thread. Are you kidding?

You want to make a personal slight towards me. Is that your way of proving fast shoes work for 1500m and up athletes only? We aren't even seeing fast times, 1000m. I do know drugs work differently on different energy systems but go on with your personal attacks.

Tell that to cathal Lombard. Tons of kids have the 54s speed needed to run in the 8:40s. Very few have the aerobic strength.

That being said I don’t know remotely how easy it would be to dope with EPO. There is that gym bro culture to help you with your steroid cycle. Not sure if how easy it is to take epo without turning your blood to sludge..

The easier answer of the shoes making everyone 1s/lap faster seems a lot more likely.

It's the SHOES. The Nu Shooz!!

Easy answer is not necessarily an accurate answer. When track /Marathon athletes, indoor 60 yards to Marathon went from leather shoes to nylon shoes, around 1959 or 1960, times dropped for everyone. That is the biggest technology change in T&F and distance running, leather to nylon. By the way, with fast shoes, no one has raced sub-3:27 1500m in awhile. When we went from leather to nylon, all times dropped in all events. Re-think super shoes as a theory since the evidence is selective.

To the extent parents are making drug choices related to kids’ athleticism, I’d guess 98% of that is unneeded growth hormone therapy for kids when they were younger. I have an endocrinologist friend and he told me it is a major issue in the profession and he knows of doctors who prescribe growth hormones regularly to kids who don’t need it because the parents think they are giving their kids a leg up in life being taller and more athletic. He specifically mentioned parents doing it with girls because parents think they need to be tall to best succeed in life.

No clue if that relates to any HS distance phenoms.

Nobody has run Sub 3:27 because of EPO testing. I notice how you ignore how many more people are running sub 3:28,3:29,3:30,and 3:31. Just coincidence that the elite time dropped about 2s shortly after the shoes come out? The 5/10 numbers are even more blatant.

Nylon shoes and syntenthic tracks helped. Super shoes are just the next step.

"They don't need access to "high-level" drugs. Any drug, obtainable off the internet, will do the job. You lost this argument long ago when it was indicated by antidoping that drugs are present in schools. Recreational drugs have long been in schools - for decades, in fact. It is utterly naive to think that performance-enhancing drugs won't be - and especially amongst incredibly ambitious athletes."

I live in the world of fact. If you have proof that anyone who ran at Arcadia is doping, then provide it. Otherwise, all you are doing is offering an opinion unsupported by reality. You are like watching a bigfoot program where they always say things like "It sounds like it is a bigfoot" or "It could be that bigfoot hides during the day." In your case, it is "This isn't saying everyone is doping, but many of the most successful MAY be." Well, yeah, they MAY be, but that does not mean they are and there is nothing anywhere for you to support that any top HS runner right now is doping. You argument seems to be, high-schoolers use recreational drugs; therefore, top HS runner are using PEDs." I understand this won't stop you, because you have staked out your position and will not move from it no matter what. But the rest of us know better- you just believe what you want. I will wait for proof, though I do not think it will ever come.

And for the rest of us living reality, consider this. Why are top Tour De France riders so good today? (Yes, some would argue doping still occurs, and it likely does but the controls are much stronger now) Even mediocre riders are riding better in some cases than some top riders from 20 years ago. Do you think developments in cycling technology have nothing to do with that fact? That shoe technology has nothing to do runners running better now that 10 years ago. Training is better, as Ineos has shown, but the technology- from shifting mechanisms to hydraulic braking systems, to lightweight shoes, aerobar changes and so on, all play a major role. I bought a new bike 4 years ago and it is already archaic.

Do you not think that at least 1 of the sub 9:00 runners from Arcadia is using PEDs? I'd put it at over 99.9% probability. When there's all to gain (admission to a top college and/or significant $) and nothing to lose (no testing), people will dope. And you can get anabolics incredibly easily, so I'm sure you can get "harder" (i.e. more performance enhancing) drugs easily now as well.

"To the extent parents are making drug choices related to kids’ athleticism, I’d guess 98% of that is unneeded growth hormone therapy for kids when they were younger. I have an endocrinologist friend and he told me it is a major issue in the profession and he knows of doctors who prescribe growth hormones regularly to kids who don’t need it because the parents think they are giving their kids a leg up in life being taller and more athletic. He specifically mentioned parents doing it with girls because parents think they need to be tall to best succeed in life."

There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, HGH carries significant risk when used outside of the very specific conditions it is used for treating. Any doctor prescribing it outside those conditions runs risk and your endocrinologist friend has to be telling a story since he or she would be required to report anyone doing what you claim. Further, there is not a lot of research showing any real athletic benefit from using HGH, but the chance of developing acromegaly, diabetes and heart disease.

"Some people believe human growth hormone can increase athletic
performance, but research shows the benefit to athletic performance is
uncertain. One review found that while the hormone increases muscle
mass, it may not improve strength and can worsen exercise capacity. Health complications from abuse can also disrupt athletic performance. Human growth hormone is on the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Prohibited List, which means athletes found to use it are banned from competition."

"Do you not think that at least 1 of the sub 9:00 runners from Arcadia is
using PEDs? I'd put it at over 99.9% probability. When there's all to
gain (admission to a top college and/or significant $) and nothing to
lose (no testing), people will dope. And you can get anabolics
incredibly easily, so I'm sure you can get "harder" (i.e. more
performance enhancing) drugs easily now as well."

I will go with what I said. There is no proof anyone at Arcadia used PEDS. Any statement otherwise is not based on fact, just supposition and speculation.