Look I'm not saying the guy doesn't have a superior winning formula, but let's be real if anything he's displayed even more cockiness. And it could be easily argued that this psychological vulnerability of his is translating to suboptimal racing tactics. When you are the best in your sport and on top of the hill, you don't play into others' mind games.. you either pretend you don't have competition or if you don't have a terrible ego you acknowledge other athletes respectfully and wish them well (the greatest form of owning them). Jakob is not even close to being the latter yet. He's already given up some of his market share to Kerr by falling for his trap and mentioning his name in interviews. Kerr has been riding that high at Jakob's expense and asserted himself as the man to beat. Kerr is without question in his head and he better get his game up in the 1500 because he will be even more vulnerable in Paris.
Jakob is a fantastic athlete and his range is amazing, but I don't think we can start having a middle distance GOAT conversation until he's really asserted domination in the 1500... and no, that doesn't mean DL winning streaks. That means a WR and winning races that matter. His Tokyo gold was deserved in that he was the fastest runner in the field, but let's face it, he colluded with Tim to lock gold and silver going into the race. What we've seen in back to back WC 1500 finals is not a dominant runner. He needs to win a 1500 final without help, or break the WR - preferably both so there is no major asterisk next to his name. The WR has stood for 24 years. We have super shoes now, arguably better tracks and training knowledge. Don't give me the PEDs bs because if you are going to accuse the greats you cannot exclude Jakob. Put simply, he is not in El G, Morceli, or Coe territory yet.
Your post here is well written and interesting…(F.ex the collusion thing between Tim and Jakob in OG; hadn’t thought of that..) But I think you are too critical (the respect thing) and downplay his dominance too much.
Jakob has a really interesting mind set that he is sharing -a vision of becoming better than everybody else. That must of course involve some disrespect of others, but I think he does it in quite a harmless way. Except when he said he was better than Wightman-not cool at all!
Evidence of evolving: Don’t know -many (f.ex his brothers) simply gets better with the respect issues as times go by (maturity)…
Jakob clearly has it in him to be the Goat. So he chooses to say so, but that doesn’t of course mean he will achieve this goal. We just have to wait and see…
I don’t think you acknowledge how dominant Jakob was in 2023. -If sickness hadn’t struck in WC he would have front run at least 2 seconds faster than Kerr, IMO. And beaten Katir in the 5000m with maybe 10 seconds..And won every race. And Kerr wasn’t a good athlete in 2023 at all (not even in WC) -showed no progression from 2021, and could have been number 6 or 7 or 8 in the final if not everyone around him flopped (Nuguse and Jakob sick, Wightman and Hoare injured, Cheruiyot and Katir screwed up in the semis, Nordås started his kick too late). So of course it was hard for Jakob to respect Kerr, whom even thought he was the best in the world..! (Even beaten by steepler Girma in his only 1500m a few weeks before, despite being glued on Jakob’s back).
But now Jakob should have acknowledged Kerr’s recent progress and achievements. But both have talked a little too much…
Conclusion: Jakob has shown a potential that could sweep every other mid /distance runner off the track. Maybe except El Guerrouj; but maybe even him. But maybe not -I think only injuries will decide.
This post was edited 10 minutes after it was posted.
People who dislike Jakob acknowledge how good he is more than his fans, when they think finishing second in the world championships in his weakest event two years in a row is a massive failure
This post was edited 16 seconds after it was posted.
Jakob is a very fine runner indeed. One of the best ever? Not as yet. Needs World record 1500/5k. Multiple Olympic/World champs gold. A dynasty of victories - to be in the conversation. Maybe a World Cross as icing on the cake? I don't deny he has the potential to achieve those goals. But, you have to actually do it first. Saying you will doesn't count for much in the end. I wish him all the best in his journey.
So what remained from Pavo Nurmi and Zlatopek and others like Peter Snell?
...
...
Myths favorized by the ultra-doping conditions of this dopage called wealthy countries..
In the other side you have the true heroes ... the bare-fooded ala Abebe Bikila who don't find what to eat.
Nonsense. Bikilia was the personal bodyguard to the emperor, and was able to train full time at altitude, 150 MPW with regular track sessions. This was when Western runners were amateur, parttime and running 50 MPW, and usually retired by 25. Running barefoot was probably faster back then for those who were used to it. Bikilia was faster barefoot and that is why he chose to run barefoot in Rome.
Yes, Bikila obviously was much better trained than his opponents.
Success hardly comes from nothing, you have to work for it. You understand?
Jakob is a very fine runner indeed. One of the best ever? Not as yet. Needs World record 1500/5k. Multiple Olympic/World champs gold. A dynasty of victories - to be in the conversation. Maybe a World Cross as icing on the cake? I don't deny he has the potential to achieve those goals. But, you have to actually do it first. Saying you will doesn't count for much in the end. I wish him all the best in his journey.
I agree that Jakob can´t be crowned as the Goat yet. But that would also almost be impossible with the number of medals the likes of Gebrselassie, Bekele, Mo Farah and El-G collected over MANY years.
He is, however, as far as I can see the most succesful 22 years old male 1500m to 5000m runner ever.
None of the above mentioned runners had 3 golds and 3 silver (inclusive one indoor) in the Olympics and WCs at his age. Neither had any of the greats far back, Nurmi, Zatopek, Virén a better CV at the age of 22.
Jakob is a very fine runner indeed. One of the best ever? Not as yet. Needs World record 1500/5k. Multiple Olympic/World champs gold. A dynasty of victories - to be in the conversation. Maybe a World Cross as icing on the cake? I don't deny he has the potential to achieve those goals. But, you have to actually do it first. Saying you will doesn't count for much in the end. I wish him all the best in his journey.
I agree that Jakob can´t be crowned as the Goat yet. But that would also almost be impossible with the number of medals the likes of Gebrselassie, Bekele, Mo Farah and El-G collected over MANY years.
He is, however, as far as I can see the most succesful 22 years old male 1500m to 5000m runner ever.
None of the above mentioned runners had 3 golds and 3 silver (inclusive one indoor) in the Olympics and WCs at his age. Neither had any of the greats far back, Nurmi, Zatopek, Virén a better CV at the age of 22.
Elliott had a better cv at age 22. Olympic 1500m champion by one of the largest margins ever and breaking his own wr in the same race. Mile world record holder, while taking almost 3 seconds off the previous record. Empire Games (the next biggest global competition after the Olympics in that era) champion over the 880y and mile in '58. Finally - unbeaten over the mile and 1500 in his career. No one can match the last achievement. That includes Jakob.
Jakob is a very fine runner indeed. One of the best ever? Not as yet. Needs World record 1500/5k. Multiple Olympic/World champs gold. A dynasty of victories - to be in the conversation. Maybe a World Cross as icing on the cake? I don't deny he has the potential to achieve those goals. But, you have to actually do it first. Saying you will doesn't count for much in the end. I wish him all the best in his journey.
I agree that Jakob can´t be crowned as the Goat yet. But that would also almost be impossible with the number of medals the likes of Gebrselassie, Bekele, Mo Farah and El-G collected over MANY years.
He is, however, as far as I can see the most succesful 22 years old male 1500m to 5000m runner ever.
None of the above mentioned runners had 3 golds and 3 silver (inclusive one indoor) in the Olympics and WCs at his age. Neither had any of the greats far back, Nurmi, Zatopek, Virén a better CV at the age of 22.
Huh are you kidding me??? The depth of distance running in Haile Gebrselassie era was infinitely deeper and stronger than Jakob's era!!!! Haile Geb consistently 4-5 years at any given moment had any combination of Paul Tergat, Hicham El G, Daniel Komen, Salah Hissou, Thomas Nyariki, John Kibowen, Moses Tanui, Khalid Khannouchi challenging him and many more. And these figures didn't change every year, meaning these competitors didn't disappear due to burn out and exhaustion/injury after 1-2 years like current day athletes. It was always the same 10 athletes challenging Haile for at least 5 years minimum before they burn-out.
Jakob only has Josh Kerr (for 2 years) and Nuguse (1 year). Jakob had nobody else, Narve Nordas doesn't count yet as he isn't proven entity.
Current generation of athletes is weaker than Haile's time. I know best as I was from Haile's generation!!!!! I literally or metaphorically saw Haile and everybody around him day and night and the quality of them all!!!
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
Jakob himself lamented that since 2017 his competitors burned like a bright flame and disappeared just as quickly and as a result he had a total of 20 different competitors. He first had Cheruiyot then he declined after 2019 so Jakob only had Cheruiyot for 2 years as real competitor from 2017 to 2019. Whereas Hicham EL G was in step with Haile Geb from 1989 till 2004 (when EL G retired)!!!
EL G and Haile, although they don't normally race one another, were always in top form every single year from 1989 to 2004 like an enduring male erection and virility whereas Cheruiyot???? He came on strong in around 2017 and by 2020 just before Tokyo 2021 I already sense his lull and decline and true enough he lost to Jakob in Tokyo 2021, a grand total of 3 years where Cheruiyot was right at the very top compared to Haile and El G 15 years (for EL G) and 20 years (until 2008 for Haile Geb)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How come Cheruiyot lost his literal or metaphorical male 'virility' or otherwise in only 3 years while Hicham El G and Haile Geb could last for 15-20 years??? or 5-7 times as long????
What makes Haile Geb and Hicham EL G so damn F-E-R-T-I-L-E despite more shock to their tendons/bones due to infinitely lousier shoes, lousier and injury prone track surfaces etc???
Whyyyyyyyyyy????????????
Cuz El G and Haile Geb had otherwise no anthropogenic RF and electrical exposure for the entirety of their childhood and teenage years, and even in adult hood (only 1G/2G mobile telephony) had far lesser exposure than current 2024 generation of athletes. They had never seen a mobile phone for at least the 1st 30 years of their lives which by then they were almost retired!!!
Today's 2024 irradiated athletes are literally and metaphorically finished. They have infinitely shorter athletic lifespan at the top, and, therefore infinitely more ready to take drugs and dope to precisely try to extend that lifespan at the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone piecing the jigsaw puzzle of doping right now?????? Now everybody knows why athletes all rushing to dope discreetly now????
Remember to upvote and subscribe thanks :)
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
Look I'm not saying the guy doesn't have a superior winning formula, but let's be real if anything he's displayed even more cockiness. And it could be easily argued that this psychological vulnerability of his is translating to suboptimal racing tactics. When you are the best in your sport and on top of the hill, you don't play into others' mind games.. you either pretend you don't have competition or if you don't have a terrible ego you acknowledge other athletes respectfully and wish them well (the greatest form of owning them). Jakob is not even close to being the latter yet. He's already given up some of his market share to Kerr by falling for his trap and mentioning his name in interviews. Kerr has been riding that high at Jakob's expense and asserted himself as the man to beat. Kerr is without question in his head and he better get his game up in the 1500 because he will be even more vulnerable in Paris.
Jakob is a fantastic athlete and his range is amazing, but I don't think we can start having a middle distance GOAT conversation until he's really asserted domination in the 1500... and no, that doesn't mean DL winning streaks. That means a WR and winning races that matter. His Tokyo gold was deserved in that he was the fastest runner in the field, but let's face it, he colluded with Tim to lock gold and silver going into the race. What we've seen in back to back WC 1500 finals is not a dominant runner. He needs to win a 1500 final without help, or break the WR - preferably both so there is no major asterisk next to his name. The WR has stood for 24 years. We have super shoes now, arguably better tracks and training knowledge. Don't give me the PEDs bs because if you are going to accuse the greats you cannot exclude Jakob. Put simply, he is not in El G, Morceli, or Coe territory yet.
Your post here is well written and interesting…(F.ex the collusion thing between Tim and Jakob in OG; hadn’t thought of that..) But I think you are too critical (the respect thing) and downplay his dominance too much.
Jakob has a really interesting mind set that he is sharing -a vision of becoming better than everybody else. That must of course involve some disrespect of others, but I think he does it in quite a harmless way. Except when he said he was better than Wightman-not cool at all!
Evidence of evolving: Don’t know -many (f.ex his brothers) simply gets better with the respect issues as times go by (maturity)…
Jakob clearly has it in him to be the Goat. So he chooses to say so, but that doesn’t of course mean he will achieve this goal. We just have to wait and see…
I don’t think you acknowledge how dominant Jakob was in 2023. -If sickness hadn’t struck in WC he would have front run at least 2 seconds faster than Kerr, IMO. And beaten Katir in the 5000m with maybe 10 seconds..And won every race. And Kerr wasn’t a good athlete in 2023 at all (not even in WC) -showed no progression from 2021, and could have been number 6 or 7 or 8 in the final if not everyone around him flopped (Nuguse and Jakob sick, Wightman and Hoare injured, Cheruiyot and Katir screwed up in the semis, Nordås started his kick too late). So of course it was hard for Jakob to respect Kerr, whom even thought he was the best in the world..! (Even beaten by steepler Girma in his only 1500m a few weeks before, despite being glued on Jakob’s back).
But now Jakob should have acknowledged Kerr’s recent progress and achievements. But both have talked a little too much…
Conclusion: Jakob has shown a potential that could sweep every other mid /distance runner off the track. Maybe except El Guerrouj; but maybe even him. But maybe not -I think only injuries will decide.
I respect your views and you know that!!!
But I have something to offer on the table that the entire LRC in and out simply cannot match hands down!!!! It's too good to comprehend.
Male sexual fertility and virility has been shown by top scientists to decline by more than 50% since 1960 due to RF exposure and this MUST (DUE TO SUSCEPTIBILITY OF RF AS THE CAUSE) be always correlated in step with declining athletic lifespans, athletic performances, athletic power, strength, endurance, health, both qualitatively and quantitatively so Jakob from 2024 can never, will never, never ever beat especially African-born Hicham EL G, Haile Geb, Kenenisa Bekele, Paul Tergat in terms of GOAT status.
Jakob can only APPEAR AS IF he can do it, or titillate all our senses and whet our appetites, but it ends there, he can never truly actually GET IT DONE IN THE PAST TENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Africa has the upper hand in distance running, and, Africa's environmental RF peculiarities of 1900-2000 or lack thereof also have the upper hand in potentiating legendary distance running capacity and skill!!!
I agree that Jakob can´t be crowned as the Goat yet. But that would also almost be impossible with the number of medals the likes of Gebrselassie, Bekele, Mo Farah and El-G collected over MANY years.
He is, however, as far as I can see the most succesful 22 years old male 1500m to 5000m runner ever.
None of the above mentioned runners had 3 golds and 3 silver (inclusive one indoor) in the Olympics and WCs at his age. Neither had any of the greats far back, Nurmi, Zatopek, Virén a better CV at the age of 22.
Elliott had a better cv at age 22. Olympic 1500m champion by one of the largest margins ever and breaking his own wr in the same race. Mile world record holder, while taking almost 3 seconds off the previous record. Empire Games (the next biggest global competition after the Olympics in that era) champion over the 880y and mile in '58. Finally - unbeaten over the mile and 1500 in his career. No one can match the last achievement. That includes Jakob.
Better cv? Debatable.
You forget to mention what Ingebrigtsen has achieved, so your post is absolutely worthless.
World Champs: 2 Gold, 3 Silver European Champs: 16 Gold World Indoor Record: 1500m World Record: 2000m, 2 Miles
European record: 1500m, 1 Mile, 3000m, 5000m
Empire Games a global competition? Also the Europeans?
personal bests Elliott - Ingebrigtsen
800m: 1:46.6 - 1:46.44
1000m: 2:19.1- no time
1500m: 3:35.6 - 3:27.14
1 Mile: 3:54.5 - 3:43.73
2000m: no time - 4:43.13
3000m: 8:09.5 - 7:23.63
2 Miles: 8:37.6 - 7:54.10
5000m: 14:09.9 - 12:48.45
steeple: no time - 8:26.81
How many international competitions has Elliott had during his full career? He was not unbeaten in 1500m/Mile races.
Elliott's Mile WR stood for 3.5 years. His second 1500m WR was bettered 7 years later by 2.5 seconds.
Elliott had a better cv at age 22. Olympic 1500m champion by one of the largest margins ever and breaking his own wr in the same race. Mile world record holder, while taking almost 3 seconds off the previous record. Empire Games (the next biggest global competition after the Olympics in that era) champion over the 880y and mile in '58. Finally - unbeaten over the mile and 1500 in his career. No one can match the last achievement. That includes Jakob.
Better cv? Debatable.
You forget to mention what Ingebrigtsen has achieved, so your post is absolutely worthless.
World Champs: 2 Gold, 3 Silver European Champs: 16 Gold World Indoor Record: 1500m World Record: 2000m, 2 Miles
European record: 1500m, 1 Mile, 3000m, 5000m
Empire Games a global competition? Also the Europeans?
personal bests Elliott - Ingebrigtsen
800m: 1:46.6 - 1:46.44
1000m: 2:19.1- no time
1500m: 3:35.6 - 3:27.14
1 Mile: 3:54.5 - 3:43.73
2000m: no time - 4:43.13
3000m: 8:09.5 - 7:23.63
2 Miles: 8:37.6 - 7:54.10
5000m: 14:09.9 - 12:48.45
steeple: no time - 8:26.81
How many international competitions has Elliott had during his full career? He was not unbeaten in 1500m/Mile races.
Elliott's Mile WR stood for 3.5 years. His second 1500m WR was bettered 7 years later by 2.5 seconds.
Firstly, comparing times more than 60 years apart is ridiculous.
Secondly, you are wrong when you say Elliott was not unbeaten over 1500/mile in his career. He is the only champion who NEVER lost over his speciality distance in his senior career. Jakob cannot match that.
Thirdly, Elliott held the world records over the 1500 and the mile. Jakob never has. Elliott also broke the previous records by huge margins.
He never ran in the European champs as he lived in Australia but he was the Empire Games champion over the 880/mile when those Games were the only other global competition; the European championships were and are a regional competition.
At their best, Jakob cannot match Elliott's unparalleled domination over their same speciality distance. Jakob is not in the running for GOAT.
Your criteria for greatness would also probably put Allyson Felix ahead of Jakob.
I find these comparisons odious - but interesting. Even for milers only I (personally) would put Coe and El Guerrouj above Ingebrigtsen currently. As a fan I would put Cram/Ovett/Keino/Bannister/Ngeny/Nurmi/Lovelock/Anderson - Hagg/Elliot above him. All that of course may change in the future.
I find these comparisons odious - but interesting. Even for milers only I (personally) would put Coe and El Guerrouj above Ingebrigtsen currently. As a fan I would put Cram/Ovett/Keino/Bannister/Ngeny/Nurmi/Lovelock/Anderson - Hagg/Elliot above him. All that of course may change in the future.
Who care about your half biased list and your classification.
You forget to mention what Ingebrigtsen has achieved, so your post is absolutely worthless.
World Champs: 2 Gold, 3 Silver European Champs: 16 Gold World Indoor Record: 1500m World Record: 2000m, 2 Miles
European record: 1500m, 1 Mile, 3000m, 5000m
Empire Games a global competition? Also the Europeans?
personal bests Elliott - Ingebrigtsen
800m: 1:46.6 - 1:46.44
1000m: 2:19.1- no time
1500m: 3:35.6 - 3:27.14
1 Mile: 3:54.5 - 3:43.73
2000m: no time - 4:43.13
3000m: 8:09.5 - 7:23.63
2 Miles: 8:37.6 - 7:54.10
5000m: 14:09.9 - 12:48.45
steeple: no time - 8:26.81
How many international competitions has Elliott had during his full career? He was not unbeaten in 1500m/Mile races.
Elliott's Mile WR stood for 3.5 years. His second 1500m WR was bettered 7 years later by 2.5 seconds.
Firstly, comparing times more than 60 years apart is ridiculous.
Secondly, you are wrong when you say Elliott was not unbeaten over 1500/mile in his career. He is the only champion who NEVER lost over his speciality distance in his senior career. Jakob cannot match that.
Thirdly, Elliott held the world records over the 1500 and the mile. Jakob never has. Elliott also broke the previous records by huge margins.
He never ran in the European champs as he lived in Australia but he was the Empire Games champion over the 880/mile when those Games were the only other global competition; the European championships were and are a regional competition.
At their best, Jakob cannot match Elliott's unparalleled domination over their same speciality distance. Jakob is not in the running for GOAT.
Your criteria for greatness would also probably put Allyson Felix ahead of Jakob.
As said, Eliott was not unbeaten in 1500m/Mile competitions.
I have not said I would put Ingebrigtsen ahead of Elliott.
So, for you the Empire Games are still a global competition? Armdumb close to his best.
Elliott did not run the Europeans? Great observation, Dumb. How many times did Ingebrigtsen run at the Commonwealth Games?
Again, not a single word to Ingebrigtsen's achievements. 3 GLOBAL (comprehenda?) Golds at 1500m/5000m, world records at 2000m/2 Miles, great times at 1500m (4th fastest),1 Mile (3rd fastest), 3000m (3rd fastest), 5000m (12th fastest at the time). Good times in the 800m and the steeple.
Relatively speaking, Ingebrigtsen's PBs are definitely worth more than Elliott's at the time.
Anybody who has Elliott undoubtedly ahead is a clown.
Say what you want - he is always dead honest. if it sounds like he is bragging or weird or whatever - he does not care. Much prefer that to other athletes saying things just to sound nice.
Its not question of sounding nice but its a question of knowing its limit and avoid being ridiculous like this discussion of GOAT or talking about doping while you are in no position to talk about it.
Imagine tomorrow Jakob being caught or the world athletics change their rules about substances or tests.
Conspiracy theory: Jakob doesn't actually care about the GOAT stuff and just brings it up so he can effectively triple his online exposure through old guys arguing about how whoever they had on a poster in HS actually had the superior palmares. Dude's got people pulling up his world athletics profile on the daily.
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