This. People can argue about shoes etc until the cows come home - but there’s isn’t enough recognition that indoor times (especially from BU) have no bearing on reality outdoors.
How many American 5k athletes - men and women - have PBs from BU that the never come close to outdoors?
BU has always been fast and the new surface had produced exactly 0 facility records. Tracks themselves don’t explain the step change in times. Was UW resurfaced? Arkansas? All seeing rapidly improved times, particularly in the mile and 3k. Shoes are the only variable that withstand any serious degree of scrutiny.
Taken from IAAF - only 4 non-Boston times in the top 20 all-time US performance lists for women's 5k, and only 3 non-Boston times in top 20 for men.
Top 12 indoor 5000m times in US history (male - slightly biased as the results heavily skew based on this weekend):
All in Boston.
9/12 that's their outright PB (i.e., fastest they've ever run indoors or out). Exceptions are Rupp, Fischer, and True.
Top 12 indoor 5000m times in US history (female):
11/12 run in Boston (Molly Huddle in NY only non-Boston performance).
8/11 that's their outright PB (i.e., fastest they've ever run indoors or out). Exceptions are Infeld, Flanagan, Simpson and Sisson.
I agree that the shoes are helping the faster times, but my point is regardless of shoe tech, indoor times from Boston in particular do not translate to what athletes run outdoors. It's a perfectly tuned track with a lightning fast surface with zero wind/weather etc.
Third NCAA 5000m record set on the newly refurbished BU track in a matter of weeks.
This. People can argue about shoes etc until the cows come home - but there’s isn’t enough recognition that indoor times (especially from BU) have no bearing on reality outdoors.
How many American 5k athletes - men and women - have PBs from BU that the never come close to outdoors?
Joe K ran 12:54 indoors, 12:55 outdoors. Woody ran 12:51 indoors, 12:54 outdoors. Grant ran 12:53 indoors, 12:46 outdoors
Adrian Wildschutt of NAZ Elite takes the win in a thrilling men's 5k at the 2024 BU John Thomas Terrier Classic in 12:56.76, and NAU's Nico Young goes sub-13...
Colin ran 3:53.17 after 4:03, six seconds behind Nico's 3:57 at 7000 ft. How can you possibly believe that Nico Young is not at least a 3:50 miler himself (like Rupp, 3:50/12:58). I would not be at all surprised by 3:48 after that workout and altitude mile, and this validates that.
Okay I normally don’t object to posts with a like/dislike ratio like this, but it just feels so weird people believe so strongly that Nico must be able to break 3:50
first of all, no one is a 3:50 miler until they actually run 3:50. Period.
that said, although he’s in wicked shape, I’m not apt to just assume he could run 3:50 or under right now at BU. I do tend to believe Nico is well adjusted to altitude and that his 3:57 alt mile, while a great performance, is not perfectly equal to its conversion. People will argue Col. Sahl. just ran faster than his time at altitude one week ago, but clearly Colin just had a much better race. Perhaps he does not do as well at altitude. See how subjective these arguments can be?
all that to say, it’s highly subjective and maybe a little naive to just assume Nico is a 3:49 guy right now. Not saying he absolutely can’t, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
Props to Nico for his run today
I cannot speak to international performances, but as a guy who lives above 7000 ft., I can assure you that no one has ever run a 3:57 in this country at 7000 ft. Nico’s 3:57 last week is every bit as impressive as his 12:57 this week, perhaps more so. It is one of the top 20 miles ever run in this country, adjusted for conditions. What makes it even more impressive is that he’s not a miler. So I do feel confident in saying that if you can run a 3:57 on a flat indoor track at 6900 ft., as a matter of basic principles of biochemistry, you have the capacity to run a 3:50 in ideal conditions at low altitude.
Do you think Adriaan Wildshutt can break 3:50? Could Ritz have at the time he ran 12:56?
No I don’t … neither can nor did.
After seeing Nico’s workout on YouTube, I knew right away he was in sub-13 shape. And I was not at all surprised by last night’s performance; however, I wouldn’t have thought this before his 2K workout. I will say this again, it doesn’t matter that Nico lacks a pure miler’s kick. Even Steve Scott lacked a true kick if you compare him to a Seb Coe or others from that era. Remember, he’s still just 21 years old. He is doing things now that are making most of re-evaluate the kind of runner he really is … stay tuned. :)
Besides, 3:50 is just not that fast!
He was born a 5/10K runner and he will always be one. He didn’t look like a 3:50 miler yesterday. He was running as fast as he possibly could during the last lap, and still got passed.
How would this metamorphosis take place? Did the running gods work their magic one night where he went to sleep as a 5/10K runner, and awoke as a 1500/5000m guy?
Do you think Adriaan Wildshutt can break 3:50? Could Ritz have at the time he ran 12:56?
No I don’t … neither can nor did.
After seeing Nico’s workout on YouTube, I knew right away he was in sub-13 shape. And I was not at all surprised by last night’s performance; however, I wouldn’t have thought this before his 2K workout. I will say this again, it doesn’t matter that Nico lacks a pure miler’s kick. Even Steve Scott lacked a true kick if you compare him to a Seb Coe or others from that era. Remember, he’s still just 21 years old. He is doing things now that are making most of re-evaluate the kind of runner he really is … stay tuned. :)
Besides, 3:50 is just not that fast!
Scott was a 1500/5000m runner but he still ran 1:45 and you’re comparing him to a 800/150Om guy in Coe. Scott had outstanding speed while Coe was at a GOAT level. Young is no Steve Scott.
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
Except Adrian Wildschutt somehow. What a kick by both of them. Discus
Such a gutsy run by Young. he ran such a smart race for the first half. made minimal moves from the middle of the pack towards the leaders.
IMO the only thing left on his NCAA to do list is an individual title. He has always had the talent and drive. now he also has the fitness.
If you told me that Nico would run sub 13 while at NAU, run in the 7:30s for 3k, sub 4 mile at altitude, nothing but top 10 finishes in XC and consistently in the NCAA track final…I would respond by saying Nico has surpassed the hype he had coming into college.
He was born a 5/10K runner and he will always be one. He didn’t look like a 3:50 miler yesterday. He was running as fast as he possibly could during the last lap, and still got passed.
How would this metamorphosis take place? Did the running gods work their magic one night where he went to sleep as a 5/10K runner, and awoke as a 1500/5000m guy?
El G or Jakob would not look like 3:43 milers either if they were in the last lap of a red-lined 5k PR effort. Put them, or Nico, in a championship style 5k race at 13:10 and you’d probably change your tune
He was born a 5/10K runner and he will always be one. He didn’t look like a 3:50 miler yesterday. He was running as fast as he possibly could during the last lap, and still got passed.
How would this metamorphosis take place? Did the running gods work their magic one night where he went to sleep as a 5/10K runner, and awoke as a 1500/5000m guy?
El G or Jakob would not look like 3:43 milers either if they were in the last lap of a red-lined 5k PR effort. Put them, or Nico, in a championship style 5k race at 13:10 and you’d probably change your tune
Nico has a long history of being out kicked in championship races and a 3:57 at 7000m does not make him a 1500/5000m runner. What do you think happened during the 60 days between XC and the 3:57 that now makes him a completely different type of runner?
It was a red-line effort for Wildschutt, as well, and he managed to out kick Young. They’re comparable runners and should have had about the same amount left in the tank.
I’m trying to decide which is more impressive: NAU’s collective performances today or that OK State somehow beat them at nationals two months ago.
Oh my god true I didn't even think about that. Not only did Nico run 12:57, and Colin run 3:53, but Las Heras and Quax ran 13:16, winning by 8s. They could've been in the fast heats. Tyler Day's 13:16 NCAA record was a few years ago, and now that's not even enough to get in the fast heat. Also, Kang Nyoak ran 3:57. I thought Washington's 8 sub-4 milers was absurd, but it looks like NAU has 6 with Nico/Colin/Las Heras/Quax/Bosley/Nyoak, and Aaron Sahlman is sitting around with a 4:00 PR from HS. What can 13:16 guys run in the mile? I think UW was like 7 guys under 3:55. Nico/Colin/Bosley could definitely do that, and 13:16 guys must be able to get close. Pretty insane.
Okay I normally don’t object to posts with a like/dislike ratio like this, but it just feels so weird people believe so strongly that Nico must be able to break 3:50
first of all, no one is a 3:50 miler until they actually run 3:50. Period.
that said, although he’s in wicked shape, I’m not apt to just assume he could run 3:50 or under right now at BU. I do tend to believe Nico is well adjusted to altitude and that his 3:57 alt mile, while a great performance, is not perfectly equal to its conversion. People will argue Col. Sahl. just ran faster than his time at altitude one week ago, but clearly Colin just had a much better race. Perhaps he does not do as well at altitude. See how subjective these arguments can be?
all that to say, it’s highly subjective and maybe a little naive to just assume Nico is a 3:49 guy right now. Not saying he absolutely can’t, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
Props to Nico for his run today
I cannot speak to international performances, but as a guy who lives above 7000 ft., I can assure you that no one has ever run a 3:57 in this country at 7000 ft. Nico’s 3:57 last week is every bit as impressive as his 12:57 this week, perhaps more so. It is one of the top 20 miles ever run in this country, adjusted for conditions. What makes it even more impressive is that he’s not a miler. So I do feel confident in saying that if you can run a 3:57 on a flat indoor track at 6900 ft., as a matter of basic principles of biochemistry, you have the capacity to run a 3:50 in ideal conditions at low altitude.
Scott's "speed" did not get him under 3:50; it was his speed/strength that did that for him. He could close with a 52/3 last 400 - that's speed/strength! Even Coe's kick wasn't the reason for his miling prowess - he is probably the fastest miler in history if you want to talk about someone's pure speed. I think he was clocked at 21.5 in a 200m race back in his junior class days.
I was only making the point that Scott wasn't a kicker type. And I never said Nico was in the same class as Steve Scott as a miler. I think Nico has comparable "speed" to a Moorcroft type. That's why I believe he'll eventually run below 3:50.
I don't like his form. He doesn't glide gracefully, he lifts his legs up and then slaps his feet onto the ground. I think it is the type of form that won't lead to longevity. (almost looks like he is running in place) Connor Mantz does a similar thing and he just had a stress reaction in his femur. Yes, they are two of America's best, but compare it to every African runner, who flows and glides. Runners should emulate that. Don't slap the ground with your feet.
I don't like his form. He doesn't glide gracefully, he lifts his legs up and then slaps his feet onto the ground. I think it is the type of form that won't lead to longevity. (almost looks like he is running in place) Connor Mantz does a similar thing and he just had a stress reaction in his femur. Yes, they are two of America's best, but compare it to every African runner, who flows and glides. Runners should emulate that. Don't slap the ground with your feet.
I was on the team in Smith’s early days and we did a ton of wickets to address ground contact time with your feet. Gliding gracefully doesn’t mean much even though it looks good from an outside perspective. There is a lot happening in the micro seconds that your foot comes in contact, and then leaves the ground. Nico has improved a lot in that regard. And small improvements add up to big time results in our events.
Great effort but it means nothing regarding his mile prospects. Look at all the US runners who can run 12:57 and can any of them run a 3:50 mile? But a great race for Nico.
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