If your wish is to watch fast 400m races, and arent concerned whether they are biological women or not then just watch a mens race. Significantly faster than 47s. Should give you all the entertainment you could wish for.
If your wish is to throw in a few trans and dsd athletes to artificially make the times faster, well thats just odd. Imagine someone saying "little league sucks, they dont hit the ball over 500', they should let pros play." Its that ridiculous.
A person with 46XY DSD is recognized as a female in sports if she does not have functioning androgen receptor. All relevant sports organizations agree that Y chromosome itself does not give a person athletic advantage.
Sex is not "immutable" as you claim. Who qualifies as a "woman" depends on the circumstances.
The sports bodies agree that being male is an advantage. A 'Y' chromosome indicates the individual is male - so they do not say what you claim. A person who is DSD-46XY is male and in the very rare case of the lack of a functioning androgen receptor that does not make them female, only that they do not have the advantages that come from being male, and would not therefore be subject to the testosterone-suppression requirement under the rules.
Sex is immutable in the sense it is genetically defined. Unlike sea-horses and some fish, we don't swap between 'male' and 'female' in our lives. We are one or the other. "Woman" only changes meaning when the word isn't used as a biological term. Thinking you are a woman doesn't make you one biologically.
You have failed to understand that this is not about gender.But then you seem not to understand much.
A person with 46XY DSD is recognized as a female in sports if she does not have functioning androgen receptor. All relevant sports organizations agree that Y chromosome itself does not give a person athletic advantage.
Sex is not "immutable" as you claim. Who qualifies as a "woman" depends on the circumstances.
Immutable means "unchanging over time or unable to be changed." In humans, other mammals and nearly all other sexually-reproducing animal and plant species, the sex of individuals is indeed immutable.
What can and sometimes does change depending on the circumstances is an individual's sex classification for matters such as sports, legal identity documents, medical care, social customs, relgious roles, inheritance of titles and property, marriage.
Every human being's sex is the result of the chromosomes containing our native DNA and sex-specific genes that can be found in nearly every one of the several trillions of nucleated cells in our bodies. People can change sex classifcation - and people can change many aspects of our appearance, including some secondary sex characteristics. But none of us can change our sex chromosomes or DNA.
(I specified "native DNA" and said "nearly every one of the several trilions of nucleated cells in our bodies" there to take into account the maternal-fetal cell exchange that often occurs during pregnancy. As a result of this process, women who have been pregnant with male offspring often end up with a few of our sons' cells containing their male sex chromosomes and male DNA scattered around our bodies. Similarly, many males have some cells here and there in their bodies that have their mothers' DNA and sex chromosomes in their bodies. But the presence of scattered cells with non-native opposite sex chromosomes and DNA in some mothers and sons does not change anyone's sex.)
No ; the manifestation of your biology changes over time Esp at puberty.
Or when a child has there genitals altered to suit the current social construct of biology.
I have ignored your last para as I can’t see how you relate it to the matter at hand.
This is Semenya's DSD- spoiler: "the condition is rare, affects only genetic males,"
I don't blame you, the reporting on this has been so shameful that most of the public assume that Semenya is, if not female, then some sort of hermaphrodite, a condition so staggeringly rare in humans that it's baffling that it's even in the conversation. However, a male with undescended testes and a malformed penis is not a hermaphrodite, and most certainly isn't female.
I'll summarize Semenya's apparent condition and how it relates to running.
Defect is in an enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone.
What is dihydrotestosterone?
"DHT signals mainly in an intracrine and paracrine manner in the tissues in which it is produced, playing only a minor role, if any, as a circulating endocrine hormone."
Where is it produced?
"Almost 10% of the testosterone produced by an adult each day is converted to dihydrotestosterone, by the testes and prostate (in men), the ovaries (in women), the skin (mostly hair follicles) and other parts of the body."
Notably, other parts does not include muscles, or bones, or any other body parts that would be helpful to running.
So bottom line is CS gets pretty much the full benefit of testosterone on physical development as relates to running as DHT, which he lacks, is not helpful. If CS didn't have this condition he'd be forced to compete against males and pretty much be running the same times.
This is Semenya's DSD- spoiler: "the condition is rare, affects only genetic males,"
I don't blame you, the reporting on this has been so shameful that most of the public assume that Semenya is, if not female, then some sort of hermaphrodite, a condition so staggeringly rare in humans that it's baffling that it's even in the conversation. However, a male with undescended testes and a malformed penis is not a hermaphrodite, and most certainly isn't female.
I'll summarize Semenya's apparent condition and how it relates to running.
Defect is in an enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone.
What is dihydrotestosterone?
"DHT signals mainly in an intracrine and paracrine manner in the tissues in which it is produced, playing only a minor role, if any, as a circulating endocrine hormone."
Where is it produced?
"Almost 10% of the testosterone produced by an adult each day is converted to dihydrotestosterone, by the testes and prostate (in men), the ovaries (in women), the skin (mostly hair follicles) and other parts of the body."
Notably, other parts does not include muscles, or bones, or any other body parts that would be helpful to running.
So bottom line is CS gets pretty much the full benefit of testosterone on physical development as relates to running as DHT, which he lacks, is not helpful. If CS didn't have this condition he'd be forced to compete against males and pretty much be running the same times.
It may or may not be interesting or of merit but needs to be written again in English in order to be comprehensible.
It may or may not be interesting or of merit but needs to be written again in English in order to be comprehensible.
I'll summarize in simpler terms.
CS's body can't convert testosterone to DHT.
DHT is not a circulating hormone like testosterone, but rather stays where it is produced.
It is produced in the prostate, testicles, hair follicles, etc. So those are the features that will be affected by his condition.
DHT is not produced in muscles or bones or anything else related to running so his lack of it has not affected his development as a runner. Without this condition he'd be running the same times.
During the hearings before the Court of Arbitration for Sport in the Semenya case, WA argued that Semenya and other XY athletes with any of the small number of "46,XY DSDs" - differences/disorders of sex development in persons with XY sex chromosomes - who are subject to the DSD rules WA issued in 2018 are "biological males."
Can you provide a reference?
In any case, using “biological males” in a court argument for communicating the performance advantages of male-leaning sex characteristics does not mean WA does not recognize Semnya as a woman, and none of the language in WA’s eligibility rules for the women’s category uses the term “biological male” or considers the likes of Semenya as anything but a woman.
Does anyone know the basis of checking the T levels that are to be reduced?
It strikes me that it would have to be some Wada like methods otherwise the levels could be false.
If it is via urine then no medical facility would accept viewed urination.
It might end up that all the CAS cases become irrelevant if the T level can be easily false.
World Atheltics' regulations - and the regulations of FINA/World Aquatics and other sports governing bodies that have well-thought-out and carefully-written regulations - clearly state that blood tests are used.
WA's 2021 regulations say "blood testosterone level."
Does anyone know the basis of checking the T levels that are to be reduced?
It strikes me that it would have to be some Wada like methods otherwise the levels could be false.
If it is via urine then no medical facility would accept viewed urination.
It might end up that all the CAS cases become irrelevant if the T level can be easily false.
World Atheltics' regulations - and the regulations of FINA/World Aquatics and other sports governing bodies that have well-thought-out and carefully-written regulations - clearly state that blood tests are used.
WA's 2021 regulations say "blood testosterone level."
Carole Hooven, an Evolutionary Biologist , and author of the book "T: The Story of Testosterone, the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us", - "Caster and others with her DSD are not females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They are MALES with testosterone-producing testes and XY sex chromosomes, and normal levels of testosterone for their sex."
A person with 46XY DSD is recognized as a female in sports if she does not have functioning androgen receptor. All relevant sports organizations agree that Y chromosome itself does not give a person athletic advantage.
Sex is not "immutable" as you claim. Who qualifies as a "woman" depends on the circumstances.
The sports bodies agree that being male is an advantage. A 'Y' chromosome indicates the individual is male - so they do not say what you claim. A person who is DSD-46XY is male and in the very rare case of the lack of a functioning androgen receptor that does not make them female, only that they do not have the advantages that come from being male, and would not therefore be subject to the testosterone-suppression requirement under the rules.
Sex is immutable in the sense it is genetically defined. Unlike sea-horses and some fish, we don't swap between 'male' and 'female' in our lives. We are one or the other. "Woman" only changes meaning when the word isn't used as a biological term. Thinking you are a woman doesn't make you one biologically.
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Carole Hooven, an Evolutionary Biologist , and author of the book "T: The Story of Testosterone, the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us", - "Caster and others with her DSD are not females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They are MALES with testosterone-producing testes and XY sex chromosomes, and normal levels of testosterone for their sex."
How come they did not smash to WR; this is not to deny your post.
It may or may not be interesting or of merit but needs to be written again in English in order to be comprehensible.
I'll summarize in simpler terms.
CS's body can't convert testosterone to DHT.
DHT is not a circulating hormone like testosterone, but rather stays where it is produced.
It is produced in the prostate, testicles, hair follicles, etc. So those are the features that will be affected by his condition.
DHT is not produced in muscles or bones or anything else related to running so his lack of it has not affected his development as a runner. Without this condition he'd be running the same times.
To be even clearer: DHT is the sex hormone made from T that is known to be primarily responsible for the following three things in male human beings:
- normal development of the prostate and penis prior to birth;
- the development and maintenance of male-typical hirsutism (hairiness) in male puberty of adolescence and adultood;
- the development of male-pattern baldness.
Semenya has an enzyme deficiency known as 5-ARD2, which makes it impossible to convert T into DHT. Males with 5-ARD2 are typically born with penises that are miniscule, malformed or missing altogether, and with prostates that are under-developed and smaller in size than usual.
Males with 5-ARD2 are also often born with their testes in an unsual location, rather than being in the scrotum like they're supposed to be. Their testes might be entirely undescended and still in the abdomen. Or their testes might be partly descended and somewhere in the inguinal canal or in folds of skin in groin but not in the scrotum.
When one or both testes are not fully descended at birth, it's common for them to continue moving down during the male mini puberty of infancy in the months after birth. This seems to be a major reason why questions and concerns about the sex of babies with 5-ARD and other disorders/differences of male sex development who were initially thought to be female only begin arising in the minds of their mothers, grans, big sisters, nannies and others who change the babies' diapers and bathe them as these little ones grow and develop over the course of their first year.
Like cystic fibrosis 5-ARD2 is an autosomal recessive condition. This means it's caused by a mutation of a gene on an autosome (Chromosome Two, in fact) rather than on a sex chromosome; and to have full-blown 5-ARD2, a person has to have two copies of a gene mutation, one inherited from each parent. Because of its inheritance pattern, 5-ARD2 "runs in families" and is most prevalent in areas and communities where there's a lot of consanguinity.
5-ARD2 occurs in females just as often in males, but it has no impact on female sex development and most females go their whole lives unaware they have the enzyme defiency. Chances are, female members of Semenya's family have 5-ARD2, too - but it's not noticeable in them because in females this enzyme deficiency has no known appreciable effects.
In other words, the fact that Semenya's genetic condition - 5-ARD2 - affected Semenya's sex development confirms that Semenya is male. If Semenya were female, Semenya's having 5-ARD2 would not have affected Semenya's sex development in any way or caused any other visible signs.
DHT is not a circulating hormone like testosterone, but rather stays where it is produced.
It is produced in the prostate, testicles, hair follicles, etc. So those are the features that will be affected by his condition.
DHT is not produced in muscles or bones or anything else related to running so his lack of it has not affected his development as a runner. Without this condition he'd be running the same times.
To be even clearer: DHT is the sex hormone made from T that is known to be primarily responsible for the following three things in male human beings:
- normal development of the prostate and penis prior to birth;
- the development and maintenance of male-typical hirsutism (hairiness) in male puberty of adolescence and adultood;
- the development of male-pattern baldness.
Semenya has an enzyme deficiency known as 5-ARD2, which makes it impossible to convert T into DHT. Males with 5-ARD2 are typically born with penises that are miniscule, malformed or missing altogether, and with prostates that are under-developed and smaller in size than usual.
Males with 5-ARD2 are also often born with their testes in an unsual location, rather than being in the scrotum like they're supposed to be. Their testes might be entirely undescended and still in the abdomen. Or their testes might be partly descended and somewhere in the inguinal canal or in folds of skin in groin but not in the scrotum.
When one or both testes are not fully descended at birth, it's common for them to continue moving down during the male mini puberty of infancy in the months after birth. This seems to be a major reason why questions and concerns about the sex of babies with 5-ARD and other disorders/differences of male sex development who were initially thought to be female only begin arising in the minds of their mothers, grans, big sisters, nannies and others who change the babies' diapers and bathe them as these little ones grow and develop over the course of their first year.
Like cystic fibrosis 5-ARD2 is an autosomal recessive condition. This means it's caused by a mutation of a gene on an autosome (Chromosome Two, in fact) rather than on a sex chromosome; and to have full-blown 5-ARD2, a person has to have two copies of a gene mutation, one inherited from each parent. Because of its inheritance pattern, 5-ARD2 "runs in families" and is most prevalent in areas and communities where there's a lot of consanguinity.
5-ARD2 occurs in females just as often in males, but it has no impact on female sex development and most females go their whole lives unaware they have the enzyme defiency. Chances are, female members of Semenya's family have 5-ARD2, too - but it's not noticeable in them because in females this enzyme deficiency has no known appreciable effects.
In other words, the fact that Semenya's genetic condition - 5-ARD2 - affected Semenya's sex development confirms that Semenya is male. If Semenya were female, Semenya's having 5-ARD2 would not have affected Semenya's sex development in any way or caused any other visible signs.
Ok we seem to have explored this quite well.
Can, now, someone put this into context of the EHRC’s decision and the future.
Also let’s not forget if the test controls can be manipulated.
During the hearings before the Court of Arbitration for Sport in the Semenya case, WA argued that Semenya and other XY athletes with any of the small number of "46,XY DSDs" - differences/disorders of sex development in persons with XY sex chromosomes - who are subject to the DSD rules WA issued in 2018 are "biological males."
Can you provide a reference?
In any case, using “biological males” in a court argument for communicating the performance advantages of male-leaning sex characteristics does not mean WA does not recognize Semnya as a woman, and none of the language in WA’s eligibility rules for the women’s category uses the term “biological male” or considers the likes of Semenya as anything but a woman.
Huh? And LOL.
At 07/13/2023 12:21pm EDT you, prickle, made a post, in repy to Read the actual judgement that slagged off me, RunRagged, as you usually do on these threads.
Yesterday you hilariously accused me of having a new kind of predjudice/mental illness you made up - "Y phobia" I think it was. Just a few hours ago you wrote this gem of a post about me:
That poster is a certified transphobe. You are wasting time with it. Just you wait until it bares its vicious verbal gymnastics fangs sooner or later.
It's pretty rich that just hours after monstering me as a "certified transphobe" with "vicious fangs" and dehumanizing me as an "it," you're now asking me to provide you with a source for a statement I made.
If I am as untrustworthy, evil, stupid and uninformed as you routinely contend - and all my posts are a waste of time like you routinely carp too - then I can't see what difference it could possibly make to you if I shared where I got that piece of information from.
But for others reading the thread who might be interested: the source is the May 2019 decision issued by the CAS in the Semenya case.
Immutable means "unchanging over time or unable to be changed." In humans, other mammals and nearly all other sexually-reproducing animal and plant species, the sex of individuals is indeed immutable.
What can and sometimes does change depending on the circumstances is an individual's sex classification for matters such as sports, legal identity documents, medical care, social customs, relgious roles, inheritance of titles and property, marriage.
Every human being's sex is the result of the chromosomes containing our native DNA and sex-specific genes that can be found in nearly every one of the several trillions of nucleated cells in our bodies. People can change sex classifcation - and people can change many aspects of our appearance, including some secondary sex characteristics. But none of us can change our sex chromosomes or DNA.
(I specified "native DNA" and said "nearly every one of the several trilions of nucleated cells in our bodies" there to take into account the maternal-fetal cell exchange that often occurs during pregnancy. As a result of this process, women who have been pregnant with male offspring often end up with a few of our sons' cells containing their male sex chromosomes and male DNA scattered around our bodies. Similarly, many males have some cells here and there in their bodies that have their mothers' DNA and sex chromosomes in their bodies. But the presence of scattered cells with non-native opposite sex chromosomes and DNA in some mothers and sons does not change anyone's sex.)
No ; the manifestation of your biology changes over time Esp at puberty.
Or when a child has there genitals altered to suit the current social construct of biology.
I have ignored your last para as I can’t see how you relate it to the matter at hand.
Yes, people's bodies change over time as we grow up and go through life. This includes changes in our visible and invisible sex characteristics. But none of us changes sex.
Female human beings especially go through marked physical changes - or "manifestations of biology" in your words - as we grow up and go through life. Such as the breast development that usually starts at age 9-10, and the dramatic hormonal fluctuations we experience during the ovualation-menstruation cycles we usually start having every 28 days when we are 11 or 12.
There are many other dramatic changes female people typically go through later on in life due to common events including pregnancy, use of hormonal BC, childbirth, miscarriage, maternity, breastfeeding, menopause, breast issues, gynecological conditions, aging.
About 30% of women in the US end up getting hysterectomies. Many women also have one or both ovaries and Fallopian tubes removed. But none of this changes anyone's sex.
After menopause, the average natural estrogen for female people is lower than the natural estrogen levels of healthy teenage boys and men. This doesn't mean women over 50 have changed, or are changing, sex.
Losing a testicle to cancer didn't turn Lance Armstrong into half a man.
There are more than a few men in the world who've had the misfortune of losing their dicks and balls in whole or part in combat, explosions or accidents. None of them stopped being male as a result. When they do paralympic sports, guys who've lost their balls and dicks compete in the men's para division. They don't say that not having normal male genitals makes them somehow female and means they now belong in women's sports. They certainly aren't claiming that males with genital anomalies have a "human right" to compete in female sports the way Semenya and some other XY DSD athletes do.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Can, now, someone put this into context of the EHRC’s decision and the future.
Also let’s not forget if the test controls can be manipulated.
I don't know what you mean by "test controls can be manipulated." But if you're talking about testing of testosterone levels, yes there's pleny of room for manipulating the testosterone testing results of males - be they XY DSD males, trans-identified males or bog standard males. There are apparently quite a number and variety of ways for males to fudge things in order to skirt the T rules imposed on DMSD and trans-identified males in women sports.
This just adds to the many arguments why males shouldn't be allowed in female sports even under rules requiring them to reduce their T for a time.
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