Good idea. For me, there's a big gap between Ryun and Lindgren and everyone else. Those two guys were competing against and beating the best in the world as HSchoolers. Forget time trials, look as races.
This is 100% right. Smashing existing HS records, being so close to existing WRs, winning national championships, making Olympic teams -- all while in HS. Show me anyone else who has done/is capable of doing this.
I haven’t been around forever but I’m 40 (graduated HS the same year as Hall, Webb & Ritz) and in my view there’s no one quite like Verzbikas. Won back to back Foot Lockers and a NXN handily, sometimes even walking across the finish line. Broke 4 and 8:30 at will and completely dominated in multiple national track meets. Not number one all time but if you have him outside your top 5 you’re likely underestimating him.
Hes probably the only guy that I think has a serious case to be a top 5 xc runner and a top 5 track runner in high school. Sahlman, Hunter, GF, and others probably have arguments to be top 10-15 in both. Im probably forgetting someone
Good idea. For me, there's a big gap between Ryun and Lindgren and everyone else. Those two guys were competing against and beating the best in the world as HSchoolers. Forget time trials, look as races.
This is 100% right. Smashing existing HS records, being so close to existing WRs, winning national championships, making Olympic teams -- all while in HS. Show me anyone else who has done/is capable of doing this.
Obviously what they did was fantastic, but the competition of the era is not what it is today. If Kessler had ran 2 seconds behind the mile world record like Ryun did, that would be a far superior achievement. Thats at least part of the reason no one is capable of doing this anymore.
In the 5000m through 1964, world athletics only lists 29 names (under 13:51), and none are East African. Today the entire top 13 are, and roughly 85 of the top 100. Grant Fisher is 14th.
The hardest part about ranking high school careers is that we want to speculate and fill in achievements. What could GF have run in a pro race? Kessler in an 800, mile, or 2 mile? Surely Ritz could've been faster on the track than he was.
The people who I think suffer the most from the what ifs are the 3 Youngs. Nico lost his entire senior outdoor season. Lex came 35th in cross a year after coming in 3rd, Leo 11th after 2nd. What if they run Hoka instead of Nike where burns ran 4:03 and Simeon only closed in a 57 instead of a 55? I bet one of them wins Acadia but they lose Brooks. What if Leo ran a fast mile or 5000? He's probably not a top 10 hs runner all time, but he probably is a top 10 talent.
One way to reconcile this is including "hypothetical races" between the greats in your criteria. It seems better to say GF could match up against anyone than to say well he could've ran 6 seconds faster but we'll never know. But still, a lot of speculation.
Good idea. For me, there's a big gap between Ryun and Lindgren and everyone else. Those two guys were competing against and beating the best in the world as HSchoolers. Forget time trials, look as races.
This is 100% right. Smashing existing HS records, being so close to existing WRs, winning national championships, making Olympic teams -- all while in HS. Show me anyone else who has done/is capable of doing this.
Kenenisa Bekele. Next.
You really expect highschoolers of any era to run near 3:26 or 12:35?
how long have you been following the sport? You can get a general idea of how good the runners are compared to each other if you follow it each year.
A more accurate list from someone who has been following HS since 2013:
1) Jim Ryun
2) Gerry Lindgren
3) Hobbs Kessler
4) Alan Webb
5) Dathan Ritzenheim
6) Simeon Burnbaum
7) German Fernandez
8) Edward Cheserek
9) Chris Solinsky
10) Chris Derrick
There is no circumstance where Fernandez can be ranked ahead of Verzbicas.
The majority of this list is worse than Verzbicas, but Fernandez is outright inferior in every way. His XC performances and track performances are objectively worse.
Verzbicas’ HS resume includes:
-3:59/8:29/8:40i/14:06i
-NBIN National Champion by himself (winning the Mile/2-Mile/5K)
-2 X Dream Mile winner
-2 X Footlocker Winner
-Footlocker/NXN Winner in the same year
Verzbicas has a special place on the list in the sense that if you take ANY mid-distance/distance runner there is, their full body of work is, at face value, worse than Verzbicas. Ryun? Far better at Mid-D and Mile, but technically loses out on all of XC and distance events. Ritz? Better at XC, but loses at every track event. Derrick? Better in XC, but worse in everything else. The only ones who can reasonably rank ahead of Verzbicas are those who are so outrageously superior in a single event that the rest of the events that Verzbicas outdoes them in can’t make up the gap (ex. Webb’s 3:53).
Fernandez though, uniquely has absolutely nothing that can be considered better. A 4:00 1600m is much worse than a 3:59 mile. An 8:34 2-Mile is much worse than an 8:29. And he has absolutely nothing in XC or the distance races that compares. The fact that Fernandez ran his PRs without competition doesn’t help the argument, because they’re not just marginally worse. They’re SUBSTANTIALLY worse. Especially when it’s known that Verzbicas has no issue running from the front with no pacer. His 8:40i was run leading from start to finish while KNOWING Edward Cheserek was following and preparing to kick. His 14:06i was so uncompetitive he lapped 2nd place.
Good idea. For me, there's a big gap between Ryun and Lindgren and everyone else. Those two guys were competing against and beating the best in the world as HSchoolers. Forget time trials, look as races.
This is 100% right. Smashing existing HS records, being so close to existing WRs, winning national championships, making Olympic teams -- all while in HS. Show me anyone else who has done/is capable of doing this.
They competed in an era with outrageously poor competition. Track and Field was an AMATEUR-only sport. There was no money. The “Professionals” were working men who either had enough wealth to train without worry, or had to balance training with work. A high schooler could compete with ”professionals” because “professionals” were basically hobby-runners who were stretching their passion just a few years past high school or college.
You did not have an army of Kenyans and Ethiopians using running to escape poverty. You did not have running machines like Rupp who had entire teams dedicated to optimizing their performance. You did not have running royalty like Bekele who could just build a soft track for training to minimize injuries.
The resources of a modern high schooler have improved over a high schooler from 60 years ago, but that improvement is absolutely dwarfed by the growth in resources of professionals.
Professional Track in the 1960s was the equivalent of something like Triathlon today. Shallow competition.
This is 100% right. Smashing existing HS records, being so close to existing WRs, winning national championships, making Olympic teams -- all while in HS. Show me anyone else who has done/is capable of doing this.
They competed in an era with outrageously poor competition. Track and Field was an AMATEUR-only sport. There was no money. The “Professionals” were working men who either had enough wealth to train without worry, or had to balance training with work. A high schooler could compete with ”professionals” because “professionals” were basically hobby-runners who were stretching their passion just a few years past high school or college.
You did not have an army of Kenyans and Ethiopians using running to escape poverty. You did not have running machines like Rupp who had entire teams dedicated to optimizing their performance. You did not have running royalty like Bekele who could just build a soft track for training to minimize injuries.
The resources of a modern high schooler have improved over a high schooler from 60 years ago, but that improvement is absolutely dwarfed by the growth in resources of professionals.
Professional Track in the 1960s was the equivalent of something like Triathlon today. Shallow competition.
Been saying this for years. I think you have to be willfully ignorant to think there's a 1:1 comparison in competition and "pros" from 60 years ago to now.
What other sports do we seriously take comparisons from 60 years ago.
Not what you asked, but my top 25 HS guys who use a time machine to come race a 5K on the track in supershoes:
Jim Ryun 13:25 Galen Rupp 13:29 Dathan Ritzenhein 13:30 Leo Young 13:32 Lex Young 13:34 Lukas Verzbicas 13:34 Edward Cheserek 13:34 Gerry Lindgren 13:34 Steve Prefontaine 13:34 Chris Derrick 13:34 German Fernandez 13:35 Grant Fisher 13:35 Alan Webb 13:35 Nico Young 13:35 Rudy Chapa 13:35 Colin Sahlman 13:35 Simeon Birnbaum 13:35 Hobbs Kessler 13:36 Drew Hunter 13:37 Aaron Sahlman 13:37 Marty Liquori 13:37 Craig Virgin 13:37 Jeff Nelson 13:37 Connor Burns 13:37 Chris Solinky 13:38
Not what you asked, but my top 25 HS guys who use a time machine to come race a 5K on the track in supershoes:
Jim Ryun 13:25 Galen Rupp 13:29 Dathan Ritzenhein 13:30 Leo Young 13:32 Lex Young 13:34 Lukas Verzbicas 13:34 Edward Cheserek 13:34 Gerry Lindgren 13:34 Steve Prefontaine 13:34 Chris Derrick 13:34 German Fernandez 13:35 Grant Fisher 13:35 Alan Webb 13:35 Nico Young 13:35 Rudy Chapa 13:35 Colin Sahlman 13:35 Simeon Birnbaum 13:35 Hobbs Kessler 13:36 Drew Hunter 13:37 Aaron Sahlman 13:37 Marty Liquori 13:37 Craig Virgin 13:37 Jeff Nelson 13:37 Connor Burns 13:37 Chris Solinky 13:38
Alan webb that far back the whole thing is wrong and no way Ryun wins or comes close
This is 100% right. Smashing existing HS records, being so close to existing WRs, winning national championships, making Olympic teams -- all while in HS. Show me anyone else who has done/is capable of doing this.
They competed in an era with outrageously poor competition. Track and Field was an AMATEUR-only sport. There was no money. The “Professionals” were working men who either had enough wealth to train without worry, or had to balance training with work. A high schooler could compete with ”professionals” because “professionals” were basically hobby-runners who were stretching their passion just a few years past high school or college.
You did not have an army of Kenyans and Ethiopians using running to escape poverty. You did not have running machines like Rupp who had entire teams dedicated to optimizing their performance. You did not have running royalty like Bekele who could just build a soft track for training to minimize injuries.
The resources of a modern high schooler have improved over a high schooler from 60 years ago, but that improvement is absolutely dwarfed by the growth in resources of professionals.
Professional Track in the 1960s was the equivalent of something like Triathlon today. Shallow competition.
um actually its only the shoes, the shoes and everyone is doping now but not before no dope in the 60s no shoes in the 60s cinder tracks um please never consider social, cultural, or economic circumstances in running or spots in the future just say shoes and dope are the only thing different everyone from the past was better because shoes and dope please dont consider social, cultural, or economic situations in the world that is much too serious have you heard of the carbon plates?
Gerry Lindgren is underrated at #2. His senior year in HS he won the Olympic Trials in the 10K and and was 9th in the Olympic final with a twisted ankle. He set a 5K record that lasted for 40 years. Jim Ryun was awesome ... I just think Lindgren was better.
Too many of these names mentioned never completed a distance race while in high school. Interesting topic as long as you understand it's about mid distance. A distance thread would be interesting too, but this thread should be titled:
Top 25 Greatest High School Middle Distance Runners.
Other than the misleadindg title suggesting it's about something else, it's a good discussion.
Too many of these names mentioned never completed a distance race while in high school. Interesting topic as long as you understand it's about mid distance. A distance thread would be interesting too, but this thread should be titled:
Top 25 Greatest High School Middle Distance Runners.
Other than the misleadindg title suggesting it's about something else, it's a good discussion.
Is Jakob Ingebrigtsen a middle distance or distance runner?
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