Calm down and focus. This isn't throwing spaghetti on the wall hoping something sticks. Show us some brain cells.
Overall GOAT is something nobody else has done. We are talking all distances, all eras, weighted appropriately.
That leaves:
KB's Gold, 1/2, Full titles in one year.
VS.
Mark Allen's 2 year unbeaten streak over many distances, Including 89' Kona and Avignon Worlds, just 2 months apart. He probably had a half or half-ish distance win within a years time of those two races, but not a world champs at that distance and not in the modern era. Nice was too long for half consideration.
Nothing Frodo has done is unique. The only thing he has is the fastest IM ever, which Blu nearly beat first time out, just months after Tokyo. That's not unique considering Blu was Oly champion just weeks before and we all agree tri records are loose records.
I give the nod to Blu over Mark Allen because 1) the modern era's specialization at different distances levels up difficult by a *HIT ton, and 2) quality and depth of fields between eras was very different. Now there are 3 distinct groups of professional specialists for Oly, 1/2, and full. Blu beat them all in a year. Mark and Dave are tied at 6 Kona's. That is not individually unique and it was in triathlon's prehistoric era (Dave) and triathlon's middle ages (Mark).
In the big four era (look it up) and just after, many crossed over distances in a season. The talent and depth was not there. Success could be had and a living could be cobbled together. In fact, it was required to survive. When Mark Allen started his 2 year multi-distant win streak (88-90), the sport was not even a sport yet, with proper governing bodies. USAT wasn't even a thing. Its first iteration ("Tri-fed") started around 88'. ITU started in 89' after Allen had already started his 2 year win streak. Many countries didn't yet know triathlons existed. That's not very special compared to now. It's why 2 year win streaks don't happen in the modern era at any distance, let alone multiple distances.
The problem with my opinion is 1) how to weight different era's correctly and 2) how to weight crossing over distances in such a short time frame and winning is. I've just assumed what KB did in the modern era is insanely difficult, and it is. But By no means is it objective or quantifiable.
It is very unique and something nobody has done. That much is known.
Lastly, I'm making my case and supporting it. Anyone is welcome to do the same. What we are trying to do has so many variables its nearly impossible. But please, use some brain cells. Don't copy and paste win lists and a ton of different people not in the OVERALL GOAT race.
Even golf is more culturally diverse than triathlon, so it's not a sport which is globally representative (for obvious reasons). Even so, I at least enjoy the passion of the arguments. Rage on guys!
Nobody agrees with you and even though your posts are super long, they don't convince any of us.
Most people think (if you check other websites) that Brownlee is the best short-course/Olympic athlete, Mark Allen is the king of the Ironman, and Frodeno is the best all-around triathlete for now.
But we all think Iden and Blummenfelt are amazing and might surpass these guys in terms of careers. If Blummenfelt retired right now, for example, would you still think he deserves to be called the GOAT?
Normal fans rate all the six factors on my list as more or less equally important. You seem to only care about "doing something nobody else as done." That is a weird GOAT criteria by most people''s standards... Is Mo Farah the GOAT because he is the only person to win 10 Golds? He is the only one. I still think he is not the GOAT.
This post was edited 55 seconds after it was posted.
Nobody agrees with you and even though your posts are super long, they don't convince any of us.
Most people think (if you check other websites) that Brownlee is the best short-course/Olympic athlete, Mark Allen is the king of the Ironman, and Frodeno is the best all-around triathlete for now.
But we all think Iden and Blummenfelt are amazing and might surpass these guys in terms of careers. If Blummenfelt retired right now, for example, would you still think he deserves to be called the GOAT?
Normal fans rate all the six factors on my list as more or less equally important. You seem to only care about "doing something nobody else as done." That is a weird GOAT criteria by most people''s standards... Is Mo Farah the GOAT because he is the only person to win 10 Golds? He is the only one. I still think he is not the GOAT.
?? Mark Allen is not the king of IM (6 wins, 2 silver, 1 bronze in Kona). No wonder you are clueless with regard to nuance. You don't yet know basic history of this sport. Dave Scott (look him up) is the king of IM... just (6 wins, 3 silver Kona).
Nobody agrees with you. Nobody thinks Frodo is the best all-around now. Frodo was thesecond best all-around before KB arrived, after Mark Allen. Now Frodo is third.
Nothing Frodo has done is unique to triathlon other than being the first to Gold/Kona but many years apart, which is no 89' Mark Allen (see nuance). That was surpassed when KB did that, and much more, in one year (see nuance). KB is essentially tied for the fastest IM ever, months after Tokyo gold, as an Olympic distance athlete (see nuance). Only Mark Allen has matched that (but not in the modern era).
Did Frodo tie the IM world record time 2 months after his Beijing gold? Thank you for your participation.
You'd have a point if Frodo's gold and World IM titles weren't 11 years apart. Or if he had a 1/2 world title anywhere near his Beijing gold. Thank you for your participation.
Now KB is going back DOWN again to race Paris 2024 (see nuance). Not a first attempt (ask Macca - look him up). Or the first to do it. Rob Barel (look him up) did it, going back down in distance, making the Sydney Olympics after being European legend in long and some mid-distance. But Barel was not crushing everywhere like KB. Barel showed the cost to mere mortals trying to switch between distances. It's why Frodo could never did it.
Is Frodo going back down for Paris 2024? Thank you for your participation.
That versatility / success / months apart is unmatched in the modern era. Only Mark Allen could do it ages ago. Now, it's KB.
But please, copy and paste what other people used to think while not knowing about the sport yourself.
Katie Zaferes just got second in a conti cup race. Supposedly lower level racing than Gwen's third place at a 'world' cup but both races were essentially very regional with regard to composition. Basically a wash there.
Katie's splits look about on par with Gwen relative to their fields. Katie's field was a bit deeper, just.
This is a tantalizing story line. Both Katie and Gwen are mom's returning to triathlon. Both are former medalists. Katie was in Gwen's 2015 - 2016 shadows then had her dance solo in 2021 Tokyo with a superb Bronze (and relay silver).
So for 3 spots, it could be...
Knibb
Rappaport
Spivey
Kasper
Sereno (if she starts breaking through)
Jorgensen
Zaferes
This is going to be a crazy qualifying period for american women. Before Katie and Gwen, it was Sue Williams' bronze in 2004. That's the only other medal for america (both genders) in a sport it created. Now the other two medalists (both moms) will fight for another Olympics. Exciting drama! mom power.
This team will be more challenging still, for Gwen to make.
Will Taylor Spivey get dogged again? (a gamble that ultimately paid off for USAT with Zaferes crushing in Tokyo).
Who will get dogged this time around? Stacked american women as always...
Nobody agrees with you and even though your posts are super long, they don't convince any of us.
Most people think (if you check other websites) that Brownlee is the best short-course/Olympic athlete, Mark Allen is the king of the Ironman, and Frodeno is the best all-around triathlete for now.
But we all think Iden and Blummenfelt are amazing and might surpass these guys in terms of careers. If Blummenfelt retired right now, for example, would you still think he deserves to be called the GOAT?
Normal fans rate all the six factors on my list as more or less equally important. You seem to only care about "doing something nobody else as done." That is a weird GOAT criteria by most people''s standards... Is Mo Farah the GOAT because he is the only person to win 10 Golds? He is the only one. I still think he is not the GOAT.
?? Mark Allen is not the king of IM (6 wins, 2 silver, 1 bronze in Kona). No wonder you are clueless with regard to nuance. You don't yet know basic history of this sport. Dave Scott (look him up) is the king of IM... just (6 wins, 3 silver Kona).
Nobody agrees with you. Nobody thinks Frodo is the best all-around now. Frodo was thesecond best all-around before KB arrived, after Mark Allen. Now Frodo is third.
Nothing Frodo has done is unique to triathlon other than being the first to Gold/Kona but many years apart, which is no 89' Mark Allen (see nuance). That was surpassed when KB did that, and much more, in one year (see nuance). KB is essentially tied for the fastest IM ever, months after Tokyo gold, as an Olympic distance athlete (see nuance). Only Mark Allen has matched that (but not in the modern era).
Did Frodo tie the IM world record time 2 months after his Beijing gold? Thank you for your participation.
You'd have a point if Frodo's gold and World IM titles weren't 11 years apart. Or if he had a 1/2 world title anywhere near his Beijing gold. Thank you for your participation.
Now KB is going back DOWN again to race Paris 2024 (see nuance). Not a first attempt (ask Macca - look him up). Or the first to do it. Rob Barel (look him up) did it, going back down in distance, making the Sydney Olympics after being European legend in long and some mid-distance. But Barel was not crushing everywhere like KB. Barel showed the cost to mere mortals trying to switch between distances. It's why Frodo could never did it.
Is Frodo going back down for Paris 2024? Thank you for your participation.
That versatility / success / months apart is unmatched in the modern era. Only Mark Allen could do it ages ago. Now, it's KB.
But please, copy and paste what other people used to think while not knowing about the sport yourself.
Lol. Good times...
You make some decent arguments but they are no where near as definitive as you think they are. Lots of room for discussion there. Your opinion is definitely not the only "correct" one out there.
A little more progress for Gwen today. 14th at a World Cup in New Zealand. Her third place finish was at a Continental Cup. This was a World Cup, so it's in between the Continental Cup & WTCS racing. A lot of top triathletes end up on World Cup start lists. Some fields can come pretty close to a WTCS start list. She said on YouTube that she was disappointed with the race but it didn't really go bad or anything. What happened is what I've been saying with some others on here. It's going to be really hard to be Olympic ready if you can't swim at the front of races. She was down 30s coming out of the water in a Sprint. The bike split was a little slow but some of that is missing the front pack and trying to make up gaps. She had the 3rd fastest run, which is great & what you would expect. It just matters a little bit less if you're too far back. All in all, she beat some good names & is inching closer to being a contender in bigger races. The problem is an American who isn't thought of as an Olympic team contender finished 7th & 40+ seconds up on her. Still has some work to do but I'm enjoying the comeback. I don't think she should be so hard on herself, while recognizing what she needs to do to be more competitive. I think people on here should see this as a solid result & not bash her for the sake of bashing her. I don't think she's announced a next race. There's a Continental Cup in Missouri in mid-April. Mid-June is the next World Cup in the Americas in Mexico.
A little more progress for Gwen today. 14th at a World Cup in New Zealand. Her third place finish was at a Continental Cup. This was a World Cup, so it's in between the Continental Cup & WTCS racing. A lot of top triathletes end up on World Cup start lists. Some fields can come pretty close to a WTCS start list. She said on YouTube that she was disappointed with the race but it didn't really go bad or anything. What happened is what I've been saying with some others on here. It's going to be really hard to be Olympic ready if you can't swim at the front of races. She was down 30s coming out of the water in a Sprint. The bike split was a little slow but some of that is missing the front pack and trying to make up gaps. She had the 3rd fastest run, which is great & what you would expect. It just matters a little bit less if you're too far back. All in all, she beat some good names & is inching closer to being a contender in bigger races. The problem is an American who isn't thought of as an Olympic team contender finished 7th & 40+ seconds up on her. Still has some work to do but I'm enjoying the comeback. I don't think she should be so hard on herself, while recognizing what she needs to do to be more competitive. I think people on here should see this as a solid result & not bash her for the sake of bashing her. I don't think she's announced a next race. There's a Continental Cup in Missouri in mid-April. Mid-June is the next World Cup in the Americas in Mexico.
"it's like urghhh.. what am I doing? is this worth it?"
yet again showing she expects to just waltz back into top of the field(s), and she expects almost instant pay offs from her decisions
if you took the gold medal out of the equation, she just jumps around alot to try to find low hanging fruit (move to Marathon, move to track, move back to short course tri). i dont mind her, I dont like her approach/attitude
Ackerlund is pretty decent and still improving. I don't know if Gwen got dropped or never made the front pack, but like in the olden days, she needs to improve on the bike.
I watched her in the 2016 Olympics, she was absolutely amazing, she literally toyed with the field. She was magnificent. You can watch the replay on YouTube. When she left for track I wrote that it was reminiscent to Michael Jordan leaving Basketball to play baseball. Jordan returned quickly and became a champion again. For Gwen to be compared to that she would have come back in time for the 2020/21 Olympics. If she comes all the way back to be champion 8 years later, in my book it would be a return greater than even MJ's :)
If she were to come back and make the '24 Oly Tri team, it would be like Jack winning the Masters at age 46 in 1986...one of the greatest comeback stories of all time.
Calm down and focus. This isn't throwing spaghetti on the wall hoping something sticks. Show us some brain cells.
Overall GOAT is something nobody else has done. We are talking all distances, all eras, weighted appropriately.
That leaves:
KB's Gold, 1/2, Full titles in one year.
VS.
Mark Allen's 2 year unbeaten streak over many distances, Including 89' Kona and Avignon Worlds, just 2 months apart. He probably had a half or half-ish distance win within a years time of those two races, but not a world champs at that distance and not in the modern era. Nice was too long for half consideration.
Nothing Frodo has done is unique. The only thing he has is the fastest IM ever, which Blu nearly beat first time out, just months after Tokyo. That's not unique considering Blu was Oly champion just weeks before and we all agree tri records are loose records.
I give the nod to Blu over Mark Allen because 1) the modern era's specialization at different distances levels up difficult by a *HIT ton, and 2) quality and depth of fields between eras was very different. Now there are 3 distinct groups of professional specialists for Oly, 1/2, and full. Blu beat them all in a year. Mark and Dave are tied at 6 Kona's. That is not individually unique and it was in triathlon's prehistoric era (Dave) and triathlon's middle ages (Mark).
In the big four era (look it up) and just after, many crossed over distances in a season. The talent and depth was not there. Success could be had and a living could be cobbled together. In fact, it was required to survive. When Mark Allen started his 2 year multi-distant win streak (88-90), the sport was not even a sport yet, with proper governing bodies. USAT wasn't even a thing. Its first iteration ("Tri-fed") started around 88'. ITU started in 89' after Allen had already started his 2 year win streak. Many countries didn't yet know triathlons existed. That's not very special compared to now. It's why 2 year win streaks don't happen in the modern era at any distance, let alone multiple distances.
The problem with my opinion is 1) how to weight different era's correctly and 2) how to weight crossing over distances in such a short time frame and winning is. I've just assumed what KB did in the modern era is insanely difficult, and it is. But By no means is it objective or quantifiable.
It is very unique and something nobody has done. That much is known.
Lastly, I'm making my case and supporting it. Anyone is welcome to do the same. What we are trying to do has so many variables its nearly impossible. But please, use some brain cells. Don't copy and paste win lists and a ton of different people not in the OVERALL GOAT race.
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