Brosnan coaching Lex Young?

You are talking about rules from 15 years ago? That's not as recent as you think lol

Well, Lukas Verzbikas is an example of success without a school-paid coach or team. He joined the XC team in an effort to break Virgin's State Meet CR. He was, however, coached by his mom and stepdad and never participated in the school T&F team in any manner. He literally never ran in a HS track meet nor did he ever race on Mondo wearing a school name. Mary Cain wasn't on the HS track team after meeting Salazar. I don't know (and suspect many of you don't either) whether she had been at some point such as Freshman year. Everything she did that got any press and that I ever heard about was certainly done without school sanction.

Grant Fisher trained with a private coach and may have been an example of the scenario described in the post I responded to - which is to say the school lets you compete under their banner although you're not part of the team in any other sense. His most noteworthy accomplishments didn't involve the school.

Brad Hudson ran on his own during HS and is an exellent example of not needing the school for anything. Of course, NP's 2 most-talked-about runners are no longer part of school team according to those on here that know more than I. They don't feel they need the coach and team.

Khannouchi had nothing to do with official high school teams and is an AR holder despite the best efforts of many. However, this is not remarkable since very best always fall into this category. Not at field events as much, but at distance it is somewhat remarkable when a superstar actually did train and compete while controlled by a school they attended. I don't know a lot of life details about some guys but of course Haile, KB, El G, Ingebritsen, Kiplimo, Keitany, Radcliffe et. al. were never school-affiliated.

Will address your questions further in anothet post.

OK Guinee,

You weren't sure the point I originally made. I was echoing a point earlier in the thread suggesting that HS teams may become jogging clubs after top runners ditch or ignore their school's official programs. It may have been only 1 poster (I didn't go back and read it all). When I read that it rang prophetic given the 2 most hyped HS runners right now have done exactly that...but also because there was a time that schools didn't seem to control kids' sports as much.

Now, you personally did join your school teams and you may coach one now or at some point. You're very school-sactioned team oriented as are nearly all teens today. But it was no problem at all not to. You question the possibility of finding competition. We raced against folks in their 20s and 30s. Finding fast enough races was very easy. The kind of guys who would get into the OTM and top-10 in Boston would run a local 10k under 30 minutes any given weekend. How much faster sort of depended on how big of a deal the race was and how many people travelled some distance to it.

I could get a 17-and-under win at many, although at big regional races it was easy to finish out of the top 3. Overall wins were far out of reach. I went under 3 hours my 1st 2 years in HS and missed the age-group medals. In one, I was behind the Girl's winner in our age group. (I only mentioned runners you'd have heard of in the post above. I won't name someone not in the press but she is a great example of a very good runner who must not have been on a school team given she was running marathons during track season.)

The reason I mention the other teenagers on the scene is to point out I wasn't the lone, wierd outlier. My group of guys wasn't guaranteed the medals simply because no one else our age ever showed up. A whole bunch of them did - kids we didn't know who (presumably) attended schools other than ours. I mean, at random events you've certainly never heard of, several went under 2:50 or 33:00. Not world class, but it was ahead of me at 15. Plenty of competition.

And here's what it came down to: the school simply didn't bring anything to the table. We had no free shoes or even a pair of socks. Coaching complaints? Gone. You suggest you couldn't have trained and raced outside of a team environment. Maybe not. Many could say the same.

But then this thread surfaces about high school students running unattached. I read and said:

1. This is not new. I did the same (although no WRs were in danger from me!)

2. Why is this not more common now?

3. Will this become standard for those who do not seek a fitness-oriented social clun but those who hope to reach higher levels?

Hey Or Not,

Thanks for info. I do appreciate you taking the time on both responses. 2008 was pretty much the last year that I paid any attention to the sport. (I also had to buy my own shoes in HS.) I am curious what State you competed in?

You are correct, that in general, I think the HS competition benefits most kids. Most of the overseas athletes ran for the same club from an early age. Their system is quite different than ours and makes more sense in many ways. The twins are in a unique position, in which they can get into any open meet now, but it still took a couple years of HS competition to get them to that point.

In California, State competition stays pretty consistent. 1:51ish, 4:10ish and 9:00ish (or faster) for the 800, 1600 and 3200. It’s hard for me to call those times elite, as they are run year after year, but they are pretty fast for HS. State Meet is one of the best managed meets in regard to time schedule. The races start exactly on time. It is also clear what needs to be done to compete. Old days it was by place only and at some point they added a time standard to allow for a better representation of the best in the state. i.e. In theory, one can be last in a race and still compete at State, if the time was fast enough. Very fair for all and not up to the whim of some Meet Director. So, unless you come from a different State or run insanely fast as a Junior, kids should not expect to benefit from not competing for their HS team.

As you pointed out, my view is heavily influenced by my racing and coaching days. Maybe, one day we will adopt a workable Club system that benefits HS athletes. Running for a club worked well for me after HS, but only for meet entries, shoes, uniform and limited travel money, not for training. I would like to hear German The GOAT’s thoughts on this. 15 years later and no one has come close to his performance at State. Last year was crazy with 7 guys going sub 4, but it is a different race when it is High School only and you race to win instead of time.

Great to see the post Guinee. I was in CA back then, but far from the well-known events in the South such as Mt. SAC. The country was running-mad back then as I'm sure you know so there was no shortage of competitve opportunity around. I mean, it could have been 1% of people ran. Maybe more. And there really were a whole bunch of teenagers at open, all-comers races.

In my case, my dad drove to quite a few just like parents drove to soccer and baseball. We (I specifically refer to the handful of guys in my training group but probably speak others that we didn't know) weren't lacking anything. By that I mean, if you want to play soccer, you can't really just do it one day and every day thereafter. You can practice by yourself, but to actually play games requires more organization and more involvement by more people.

As far as distance running goes, we didn't need a school and their coach, team, and practice schedule. I just can't see how any of that would have created a better experience. I wonder why so many, especially among later generations, have been desirous of 'being on the team.' What did they give you that you lacked?

But here's the real point: those who ran unattached in the '70s, '80s, or now, think it's fine of you run excusively for your school. It worked for you. Great. But those who have never considered NOT running in school colors are offended by someone who ignores the school and simply trains and competes. Why is that?

Plenty of kids feel they don't really have a choice. Not signing up for track = not participating in the sport. This is true if your parents don't allow unchaperoned training, which can be seen as 'just going running' as opposed to playing a 'real sport' for the school like your brother and sister do. The other kids as school and specifically the ones on a team, can enforce the 'no unattached running' very easily with a dozen pairs of fists.

In my case, the XC crowd knew who I was and that I ran. The track crowd - not the same people - didn't. So I had no pressure at all the 45 weeks a year that XC wasn't in season. But why isn't it OK, in the court of public opinion, to just train and race, and like in my case, be completely unknown to the track coach? Mine would have not recognized me nor known my name, and I was the best distance runner at the school. Why does that bother anybody?

My complete approval of the school-less option is why I will defend anyone who is going that way. I'm not particularly into NP but the second I hear that someone who COULD run for a school is NOT doing so, I applaud. They're not telling everyone else to do it their way.

It is because we have erected and ossified a litigious, anxiety-ridden, social media-obsessed, corporatist collegiate athletic model that drives athletes into stratospheric stardom, concussed obsolesence and not much in between.

Other than Rome on the brink of its collapse, you would be hard pressed to find a society with an equally perverted sense of balance and fairness.

Good points but I still think you were an exception. You may remember the Boitano's? Mike and Mary Etta were crushing road races in Jr. High. Mary Etta got at least one overall win at Dipsea. I never saw either in HS but did see Mary Boitano when she ran for SF State. Never got a chance to talk to her but she was no longer a star. There were also a couple people at my school that ran roads but didn't compete for the team. Some people liked to run without the pressure of competing. The Garritson's was another running family that did well for a short while, that I think may not have run for a school, but I never saw them in later years.

I certainly have no problem with what ever the kids decide. When I coached, there were kids that grew up doing roads and all I asked was for them to let me know if they were doing roads during the season. I would adjust the training around it. I also talked to my athletes a lot about their development, giving my input on which races they should run, but letting them decide. I realize a lot of coaches wouldn't do that as they were more oriented to dictating what the kids raced to score points.

I was lucky that I had a good coach as well as team. I also had several friends on another team that had a recreational coach and luckily decided to run in College, even though they weren't very good in HS but they got very good once they were on a team that trained hard. For myself and my friends that didn't develop until college, money savings aside, the benefits of running for a school team was having training partners, learning how to train, i.e. the progression of work outs, tapering, value of easy days, etc. and having input on form issues and mental preparedness.

In the case of the twins, I am sure there are several issues they had to consider before making their decision. To answer your question as to why a lot of people have an issue with it? Very simple, people are myopic and egotistical. I assume the negative talk are reflections of what they can't stand about themselves and misdirect their negative thoughts/feelings to the most convenient target. In this case that target happens to be Sean Brosnan. All the issues I brought up on the value of running for a team (with a good coach), the twins won't miss out on any of that. And if one of your points is that it is better to run on your own, than run for a bad coach, I certainly agree.

This sounds like it was written by a sixth grader who has never read a history book.

I hope you know that you just proved his point. If his writing style throws you, try reading something by Samuel Delaney. Maybe just read his post again, until it is clear to you what he is saying.

Is this why Brosnan got fired from his UCLA coaching job?