It's probably not worth my time, but I'll comment on the fallacy of this argument anyway. Trans women are not 4X more likely than women to experience violence because they are trans. High rates of violence among trans women are almost always due to involvement in risky activities such as sex work.
The other thing is: there have been documented cases of violence against women in bathrooms and locker rooms. You're just dismissing them as anecdotes. Some women don't want penis in their private spaces. I don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to understand.
95% of the violence perpetrated against women is perpetrated by their male partners.
Like most of what you say, this is simply not true!
Yes, most intimate partner violence or IPV against women and girls between the ages of 15 and 49 is perpetrated by their male partners or previous partners.
But a lot of violence males commit against women and girls - including sexual violence but also violence like muggings, robbery and plain assault - is done by males who have never been the romantic or life partners of the girls or women they victimize.
Some of these males are acquaintances or friends - school and class mates, neighbors, employers, work managers, co-workers, doctors, dentists, therapists, coaches, teachers, school administrators, counselors, custodians, physical therapists, care workers, police officers, school and other bus drivers, priests, ministers, imams, rabbis, male friends of the family, fathers and brothers of playmates and classmates, shopkeepers, repairmen, utility workers, house painters, landscapers, auto mechanics, tow truck drivers, retail business personnel and professional businessmen with whom the girls and women have come into contact but aren't intimately involved with as partners, etc.
Moreover, a good deal of violence against women and girls is committed by men and boys who are total strangers to them. Jack the Ripper, the Yorkshire Killer, Ed Gein, Richard Speck, the Boston Strangler, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez aka "The Night Stalker," Gary Ridgway aka "The Green River Killer," Russell Williams, the Craigslist Killer are only a few of the many, many men who have stalked, raped and/or killed women they've never been in intimate partner relationships with.
Similarly, many men and boys accused and/or found guilty of sexual assault of girls and women like Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Larry Nasser, Jimmy Saville, Roman Polanski, Bill Clinton, Brock Turner, the myriad Muslim male "grooming and rape gangs" operating in numerous British towns and cities, etc have perpetrated their male violence on women and girls who were never their partners.
Lots of guys assault, rape or attempt to rape girls and women when they are out on first dates with them, when attending a party or social events, when encountering women in bars or night clubs, when attending school or serving in the military with them. Over the years, legions of women in bars, restaurants and clubs have been slipped Mickeys and Roofies and assaulted by guys they don't know - and nowadays guys in bars, clubs, restaurants and on public transport are using quick needle jabs to drug unsuspecting women they plan to assault. Plenty of taxi drivers and Uber and Lyft drivers commit or attempt to commit sexual assault, plain assault and robbery against female passengers.
Even when violence against women and girls occurs in domestic settings, it's not true that "95%" of this violence is committed by the women's partners. Quite a few women and girls are violently assaulted and sexually abused in their own homes by their fathers, uncles, grandfathers, stepfathers, brothers, moms' boyfriends - and by their own teenage and adult sons.
Also, nowadays older women living alone, severely disabled women and girls, and women and girls in nursing homes and LTCFs in the USA have a fairly high and growing likelihood of being violently assaulted, robbed, raped and/or murdered in their own homes/places of residence by men who are either total strangers to them or the women and girls barely know, such as male nurses and nurses aides, delivery guys, maintenance workers, custodians, creepy neighbors and male sex offenders who've graduated from peeping in windows and stealing women's underwear off clotheslines and out of communal laundry facilities to breaking into residences and attacking women and girls there.
98% of crimes of sexual violence in the world are committed by males, and 88%-92% of the victims of male sexual violence in Western Anglophone countries are females. Nearly all females over age 11-13 have been leered at, ogled, catcalled, sexually harassed, groped, pushed around, dick flashed at, masturbated at, perved on, ordered to "sxck my dick" and "sit on my face," sexually bullied, threatened and/or menaced in some way by boys and men.
Nobody is saying otherwise. What people are saying is that trans people also have experiences of harassment and assault.
The problem with limiting explanations of sexual assault to biology is that is it doesn't account for the whole picture. Perpetrators often aren't sexually attracted to their victims and not many want to use their victim's wombs to procreate. There's elements of dominance and humiliation that fuels rapist's crimes.
That is often directed at cis gender women but also affects people viewed as feminine or insufficiently masculine such as gay and trans people. In all these cases it's about men and masculinity being dominant so I don't understand why you dismiss trans people's experiences.
Let me modify, over 90% of violence against women is perpetrated by males known to the women, often intimate partners. Stranger danger is relatively rare. The locker room scenario is as Janey Starling describes, “moral panic.” You’ve spent an enormous amount of time and energy demonizing trans women on these boards and making them out to be a significant threat to the safety of females. Whether or not you think it’s right for trans women to compete against females in sports, painting them as a predatory and dangerous group is disingenuous at best and bigotry at worst.
Let me modify, over 90% of violence against women is perpetrated by males known to the women, often intimate partners. Stranger danger is relatively rare. The locker room scenario is as Janey Starling describes, “moral panic.” You’ve spent an enormous amount of time and energy demonizing trans women on these boards and making them out to be a significant threat to the safety of females. Whether or not you think it’s right for trans women to compete against females in sports, painting them as a predatory and dangerous group is disingenuous at best and bigotry at worst.
Let me shout it from the back so you can understand clearly: males are much more likely to commit violent crimes than females, and females are more vulnerable due to average strength and size differences. Allowing any males into private female spaces is likely to increase the rate of crime against females. None of this has to do with gender identity except for the following: psychosexual predators and garden variety narcissists and psychopaths will exploit any loophole they can to gain access to victims, and this includes identifying their way into women's spaces. This does not mean that all males who identify as women are predators, narcissists, or psychopaths. I've repeated this point over and over again. Do you think Ted Bundy gave a damn about the unique vulnerability of people on crutches or with broken arms when he pretended to be injured and helpless? Do you think the Wi Spa guy, a known exhibitionist with a long track record of abusing women, cares that his trans ruse is harmful to trans people who are just going about their lives? No, they don't care--and clearly neither do you. After all, the victims have only anecdotes, not wildly-shocking statistics to back their claims.
PS: I'm not morally panicked about trans women. I'm angry that sanctimonious, self-styled "progressives" can't acknowledge the material existence of women or their right to use the toilet and change clothes without "people who were assigned penis & testicles at birth" in the same room.
Let me shout it from the back so you can understand clearly: males are much more likely to commit violent crimes than females, and females are more vulnerable due to average strength and size differences. Allowing any males into private female spaces is likely to increase the rate of crime against females. None of this has to do with gender identity except for the following: psychosexual predators and garden variety narcissists and psychopaths will exploit any loophole they can to gain access to victims, and this includes identifying their way into women's spaces. This does not mean that all males who identify as women are predators, narcissists, or psychopaths. I've repeated this point over and over again. Do you think Ted Bundy gave a damn about the unique vulnerability of people on crutches or with broken arms when he pretended to be injured and helpless? Do you think the Wi Spa guy, a known exhibitionist with a long track record of abusing women, cares that his trans ruse is harmful to trans people who are just going about their lives? No, they don't care--and clearly neither do you. After all, the victims have only anecdotes, not wildly-shocking statistics to back their claims.
PS: I'm not morally panicked about trans women. I'm angry that sanctimonious, self-styled "progressives" can't acknowledge the material existence of women or their right to use the toilet and change clothes without "people who were assigned penis & testicles at birth" in the same room.
Wow….
“This does not mean that all males who identify as women are predators, narcissists, or psychopaths. I've repeated this point over and over again.”
That’s so generous of you….If not all, do you want to tell us your view on what % of trans people are predators, narcissists or psychopaths?
Criminals exist and should be caught and prosecuted. Cis men invade safe spaces all the time and commit crimes and other loathsome acts. They commit crimes outside of safe spaces too. Your rhetoric impugns an entire group because of the bad acts of a very few. It’s not making women any safer. It’s bigotry. That’s not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of plenty of feminists and anti violence activists like Janey Starling.
In some ways, we are not so far off in our thinking. I'm in agreement with your first paragraph. You say that you've never said that females are just as good at sports as males. If that's the case, then you are advocating for special treatment for females, which is inherently unfair, but yet you call this "fair".
I also agree fully with your second and third paragraphs, though there will be differences of opinion on what constitutes "maximum safety" for all.
But, then we clearly diverge in the last paragraph. My position is that while there are differences in males and females and human beings are of equal worth and value (as you said in para 2), they should be treated fairly (which will ultimately point people towards endeavors where they excel). Wouldn't it be ridiculous for more scholarships, professional sporting careers, etc to be given to men who tried their best at ensemble water ballet? Yes, of course, they would try their best, and no, they aren't worth less because they are not as good. But, at the end of the day, there should not be social engineering to promote making men into water ballet performers. Yet, that is your position for women in sports.
This is not a female vs male issue, it is a we issue, and that is where we see things differently. It is through this male vs female dichotomy that you mischaracterize my position. Most of sport is played out in early developmental years. I am not suggesting there be any difference in the treatment of males and females. At the end of high school, there are millions of males every year who deal with the fact that although they may love their sport, they will not be able to join a collegiate team, and they certainly will not be going pro. The same should be true of all females who may find themselves at the same level of ability. A number of females would be good enough to continue, and that's great. Most will participate in rec leagues, etc after high school, and there's nothing wrong with that. This is utterly fair, but you somehow continue to contend otherwise.
This is why it's interesting to observe you on the trans issue. Given the tacitly unfair system that has been engineered to this point, I agree that males should not be in female's sports. But, you find it right to reject their arguments of inclusion when it furthers their aims, only to affirm the exact same arguments when they benefit females.
In short, sports for everyone is great. The highest levels should be reserved for those who can do them best. Pretty simple.
I have never said that females are just as good as sports as males. On the contrary, I say that due to the myriad physical differences between male and female humans, males are much better at nearly all sports than females. AFAIK, the only sport that females can do well that males are crap at is ensemble water ballet.
My position is that despite our myriad physical differences, female and male human beings are of equal worth and value - and therefore girls/women deserve as much opportunity as boys/men to participate as fully in most areas of life where participation of both sexes is possible like citizenship, governance, education, the arts, employment, commerce, scientific studies, PE and sports.
My position is also that persons of both sexes, all ages and all levels of ability/disability deserve to be able to participate in scholastic, informal recreational, organized community, club, league and professional sports to the best of their individual abilities - and to do so under rules, regulations and conditions that provide for maximum fairness and safety for all.
Whereas your position is that because males - and especially males who are young and able-bodied - happen to be best at sports due to biology and evolution, then sports should be set up to favor, prioritize and be inclusive of said males and only them, even though this means excluding and being unfair to nearly all the female half of the population, everyone who has a disability, and males who are not in the prime of life.
This is a great idea! We should have a women's-only Olympics. It would give women a chance to compete only against other women, no men, trans or otherwise. There would be women-only races, and women-only prizes. We could even run it at the same time as the "regular" Olympics. Then, for the sake of efficiency, we could combine the two events, and just have one Olympics, but some of the events would be for men and some for women. It's brilliant.
You're absolutely correct to be sarcastic! I couldn't make my point any better.
We should award gold medals and championships to all old people still going for it. All young people, too! We should have age divisions in 1 year increments! We should have a myriad of divisions for all weight classes as well! All the different races of people, too. All Olympic gold medalists, baby! Brilliant.
This is a great idea! We should have a women's-only Olympics. It would give women a chance to compete only against other women, no men, trans or otherwise. There would be women-only races, and women-only prizes. We could even run it at the same time as the "regular" Olympics. Then, for the sake of efficiency, we could combine the two events, and just have one Olympics, but some of the events would be for men and some for women. It's brilliant.
You're absolutely correct to be sarcastic! I couldn't make my point any better.
We should award gold medals and championships to all old people still going for it. All young people, too! We should have age divisions in 1 year increments! We should have a myriad of divisions for all weight classes as well! All the different races of people, too. All Olympic gold medalists, baby! Brilliant.
Hey, you're the one who advocated a "women-only" Olympics as if it were somehow meaningfully different from what we have now. If you think I am making your point, then you don't understand what I wrote.
98% of crimes of sexual violence in the world are committed by males, and 88%-92% of the victims of male sexual violence in Western Anglophone countries are females. Nearly all females over age 11-13 have been leered at, ogled, catcalled, sexually harassed, groped, pushed around, dick flashed at, masturbated at, perved on, ordered to "sxck my dick" and "sit on my face," sexually bullied, threatened and/or menaced in some way by boys and men.
Nobody is saying otherwise. What people are saying is that trans people also have experiences of harassment and assault.
The problem with limiting explanations of sexual assault to biology is that is it doesn't account for the whole picture. Perpetrators often aren't sexually attracted to their victims and not many want to use their victim's wombs to procreate. There's elements of dominance and humiliation that fuels rapist's crimes.
That is often directed at cis gender women but also affects people viewed as feminine or insufficiently masculine such as gay and trans people. In all these cases it's about men and masculinity being dominant so I don't understand why you dismiss trans people's experiences.
No one is denying male-on-male violence. What women like me are saying is the violence that some males "viewed as feminine or insufficiently masculine" experience at the hands of other males is not the problem of female people to solve.
We are also saying that the solution to the male-on-male violence that some males experience - not just due to them being "feminine or insufficiently masculine" but because of factors like being very young or very old, being very short and skinny, being disabled or infirm - is not to put girls and women at risk by opening up all female-only "safe spaces" to all and any males who want in regardless of how those males say they "identify" and no matter what kind of "gender expression" they have.
Like many other mothers of male children, the friend of many gay men, and someone who knows many disabled and frail men, I am fully aware of the vulnerabilities of many males to violence, harassment, bullying and sexual assault by other males. I know and have known many baby boys, young boys and slender, beautiful pubescent boys who are vulnerable to male abuse and sexual predation; many weak old men; quite a few men who rely on wheelchairs, canes, walkers and sight aids; and many gay guys who have been bullied, assaulted and gay bashed, along with many gay male friends and colleagues who died horribly of AIDS in the 80s and 90s....But never before in history did any group of adult and adolescent males, no matter how vulnerable they might havre been to abuse by other males, demand the right to use ladies' loos, locker rooms, rape refuges, shelters and such in order to protect themselves from being picked on and preyed on by other males.
Historically, the only males allowed in female "safe spaces" have been baby and young boys with their mums or female carers. I used to take my little brother and later on my own son and nephews into ladies' loos, locker rooms, changing rooms and even gym showers with me when they were babies and very little boys. But the custom and stated rule in such female spaces has always been that once boys turn 7 or 8, it's no longer appropriate or permissible for them to use those spaces, not even when accompanied, watched over and kept in line by their mums or other female carers. (Though IME, most boys start wanting to use the men's and boys' facilities at 5 and 6.)
Why is it so difficult for guys like you to accept that girls and women don't want to be forced to get undressed and to attend to our intimate bodily needs like menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, leaky lactating breasts, menopausal flooding with males watching us as we disrobe, listening in from the next stall or outside the flimsy door with the wide cracks as we use the toilet, or leering at us as we stand at the sinks washing blood from our hands, skirts or trousers and milk stains from our tops?
Why is is so difficult for guys to accept that girls and women don't want to share communal toilets with guys because guys spray stinky-smelling male pee all over the toilet seats and floors, forcing us to step in it and either to sit in it or spend time cleaning off the seats? And because some guys jerk off in toilets at work and school, and other guy like to rummage through the sanitary bins where we've left used pads and tampons?
I am not dismissing the experiences of males who identify as trans. I am simply saying they are not identical to or even substantially the same as or similar to female people's experiences.
When trans-identified males are threatened or assaulted by other males, they still have a much better chance of fighting off the attacker or getting away because they have male strength, speed, size, explosiveness, lung capacity, bone sturdiness and so on. When males attack and sexually assault females, we are much more vulnerable to serious injury than males who experience such assaults are - broken bones; hematomas; concussion; TBI; unconsciousness; internal damage to the vagina, reproductive tract and anus; HIV and STI transmission; and death.
Plus, girls and women can and do get pregnant when raped - which adds layers to our trauma that trans-identified males do not experience and most cannot imagine and never ever give a moment's thought to.
Your continual insistence that male trans-identified people and female people are all in the same boat and there is no appreciable difference between us, our levels of risk or our life experiences is what Gavin DeBecker dubbed "forced teaming.As I've mentioned to you before, forced teaming is classic tactic of abusers and male sex predators.
I think there's actually much more evidence that male trans activists like you continually dismiss the experience of female people than there's evidence that women like me are dismissing the experience of trans-identified males.
In some ways, we are not so far off in our thinking. I'm in agreement with your first paragraph.
You say that you've never said that females are just as good at sports as males. If that's the case, then you are advocating for special treatment for females, which is inherently unfair, but yet you call this "fair".
My position is that while there are differences in males and females and human beings are of equal worth and value (as you said in para 2), they should be treated fairly (which will ultimately point people towards endeavors where they excel).
This is not a female vs male issue, it is a we issue
But it seems to me that you are suggesting that males be seen as the human norm, as the default type of human whose physical characteristics and needs should be centered and prioritized in sports at the expense and exclusion of female people.
Being fair doesn't mean treating everyone as though we are all physically and developmentally the same. Equal opportunity and fair treatment means taking into account that many groups of people are physically different to one another - and that each of us is physically and developmentally different to our own selves at various phases/ages of life Treating people fairly and providing equal opportunity means making policies and accommodations that allow for children, adolescents, elderly people, people with mobility issues, impaired sight and hearing, and all sorts of disabilities to participate in society as much as is reasonably possible.
No offense, but you come off as someone who probably argues against making any accommodations for people who use wheelchairs, walkers and other mobility aids; who have infirmities that make walking, standing and climbing difficult or impossible; and who are pushing prams or strollers - because if abled-bodied men like you can easily use the stairs, then everyone else should too.
“This does not mean that all males who identify as women are predators, narcissists, or psychopaths. I've repeated this point over and over again.”
That’s so generous of you….If not all, do you want to tell us your view on what % of trans people are predators, narcissists or psychopaths?
Criminals exist and should be caught and prosecuted. Cis men invade safe spaces all the time and commit crimes and other loathsome acts. They commit crimes outside of safe spaces too. Your rhetoric impugns an entire group because of the bad acts of a very few. It’s not making women any safer. It’s bigotry. That’s not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of plenty of feminists and anti violence activists like Janey Starling.
I can't tell whether you are incapable of understanding the flaws in your argument or you're so indoctrinated that you've learned to overlook the contradictions.
Let me modify, over 90% of violence against women is perpetrated by males known to the women, often intimate partners. Stranger danger is relatively rare.
Still wrong. You really don't know what you are talking about here, mate.
The fact that a great deal of violence against women and girls is perpetrated by males known to the women, including current and former intimate partners, doesn't mean that "stranger danger is relatively rare" for women and girls like you say.
Every day as girls and women make our way out and about in the world, a good number of us are leered at, followed, stalked, creeped on, sexually harassed, bullied, dick flashed at, masturbated at, threatened, pushed around, groped, rubbed up against, humped, menaced, assaulted, robbed, sexually assaulted by men (and sometimes boys) we don't know.
Sometimes women and girls are abducted off the street, raped, killed or sex trafficked. Last year in London, Londoner Sarah Everhard was kidnapped off the street as she was walking home by a Met police officer who was a total stranger to her, who then raped and murdered her, burying her body woods where he took his own family for a picnic a few days later. Just a months ago, there was much talk on LRC about runner Eliza "Liza" Fletcher who was murdered by a total stranger who snatched her off the street whilst jogging in Memphis earlier this year.
Of course, being threatened, menaced, flashed at, masturbated at, groped, rubbed up against, leered at, catcalled, followed at a worrying close distance and so on by men who are total strangers doesn't happen to all of us on a daily basis. But it happens to each one of us enough in our lives, usually starting when we are quite young, that most girls and women automatically take a bunch of precautions that males don't take - and males never think about.
The fact that you have no idea about this just goes to show how little males like you are interested in finding out what the majority of girls and women actually go through.
No one is denying male-on-male violence. What women like me are saying is the violence that some males "viewed as feminine or insufficiently masculine" experience at the hands of other males is not the problem of female people to solve.
We are also saying that the solution to the male-on-male violence that some males experience - not just due to them being "feminine or insufficiently masculine" but because of factors like being very young or very old, being very short and skinny, being disabled or infirm - is not to put girls and women at risk by opening up all female-only "safe spaces" to all and any males who want in regardless of how those males say they "identify" and no matter what kind of "gender expression" they have.
Like many other mothers of male children, the friend of many gay men, and someone who knows many disabled and frail men, I am fully aware of the vulnerabilities of many males to violence, harassment, bullying and sexual assault by other males. I know and have known many baby boys, young boys and slender, beautiful pubescent boys who are vulnerable to male abuse and sexual predation; many weak old men; quite a few men who rely on wheelchairs, canes, walkers and sight aids; and many gay guys who have been bullied, assaulted and gay bashed, along with many gay male friends and colleagues who died horribly of AIDS in the 80s and 90s....But never before in history did any group of adult and adolescent males, no matter how vulnerable they might havre been to abuse by other males, demand the right to use ladies' loos, locker rooms, rape refuges, shelters and such in order to protect themselves from being picked on and preyed on by other males.
Historically, the only males allowed in female "safe spaces" have been baby and young boys with their mums or female carers. I used to take my little brother and later on my own son and nephews into ladies' loos, locker rooms, changing rooms and even gym showers with me when they were babies and very little boys. But the custom and stated rule in such female spaces has always been that once boys turn 7 or 8, it's no longer appropriate or permissible for them to use those spaces, not even when accompanied, watched over and kept in line by their mums or other female carers. (Though IME, most boys start wanting to use the men's and boys' facilities at 5 and 6.)
Why is it so difficult for guys like you to accept that girls and women don't want to be forced to get undressed and to attend to our intimate bodily needs like menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, leaky lactating breasts, menopausal flooding with males watching us as we disrobe, listening in from the next stall or outside the flimsy door with the wide cracks as we use the toilet, or leering at us as we stand at the sinks washing blood from our hands, skirts or trousers and milk stains from our tops?
Why is is so difficult for guys to accept that girls and women don't want to share communal toilets with guys because guys spray stinky-smelling male pee all over the toilet seats and floors, forcing us to step in it and either to sit in it or spend time cleaning off the seats? And because some guys jerk off in toilets at work and school, and other guy like to rummage through the sanitary bins where we've left used pads and tampons?
I am not dismissing the experiences of males who identify as trans. I am simply saying they are not identical to or even substantially the same as or similar to female people's experiences.
When trans-identified males are threatened or assaulted by other males, they still have a much better chance of fighting off the attacker or getting away because they have male strength, speed, size, explosiveness, lung capacity, bone sturdiness and so on. When males attack and sexually assault females, we are much more vulnerable to serious injury than males who experience such assaults are - broken bones; hematomas; concussion; TBI; unconsciousness; internal damage to the vagina, reproductive tract and anus; HIV and STI transmission; and death.
Plus, girls and women can and do get pregnant when raped - which adds layers to our trauma that trans-identified males do not experience and most cannot imagine and never ever give a moment's thought to.
Your continual insistence that male trans-identified people and female people are all in the same boat and there is no appreciable difference between us, our levels of risk or our life experiences is what Gavin DeBecker dubbed "forced teaming.As I've mentioned to you before, forced teaming is classic tactic of abusers and male sex predators.
I think there's actually much more evidence that male trans activists like you continually dismiss the experience of female people than there's evidence that women like me are dismissing the experience of trans-identified males.
Because this is LRC, most of the people arguing against your pov are men, and you use that as a rhetorical cudgel. “Back of blokes, how dare you have an opinion on this topic.” I get it, men should take a backseat in this debate. However, you should acknowledge that many biological females do not share your point of view. I posted one such piece, but I could find and post many more from female feminist activists that support trans rights. I can’t prove this to you, but I suspect more biological males share your view than biological females about trans rights. The very same men that are more than happy to deprive you of reproductive freedom, pay you less for equal work, deprive you of needed family and childcare support, couldn’t care less about rape culture or women’s athletics, etc are your most vociferous allies when it comes to trans bashing. Don’t you find this the least bit odd?
For those who would like a different perspective on whether or not trans women should be excluded from women’s “safe spaces,” I would encourage you all to read this piece by Janey Starling, a leading domestic violence expert in the UK. This is an issue separate from participation in athletics, but an important one.
This article makes a better case for "Why Trans Women Do Not Belong in Men's Space" than a case for "Why Trans Women Belong in Women's Space."
So let's find some compromise. Trans women should be given their own space separate from both cis men and cis women. And if trans men also want space of their own, they should get one as well.
Because this is LRC, most of the people arguing against your pov are men, and you use that as a rhetorical cudgel. “Back of blokes, how dare you have an opinion on this topic.” I get it, men should take a backseat in this debate. However, you should acknowledge that many biological females do not share your point of view. I posted one such piece, but I could find and post many more from female feminist activists that support trans rights. I can’t prove this to you, but I suspect more biological males share your view than biological females about trans rights. The very same men that are more than happy to deprive you of reproductive freedom, pay you less for equal work, deprive you of needed family and childcare support, couldn’t care less about rape culture or women’s athletics, etc are your most vociferous allies when it comes to trans bashing. Don’t you find this the least bit odd?
I know that many females do not share my point of view. You in particular have trotted out your wife and college-age daughter as examples of women who disagree with me many times. Once you even asked your college-age daughter for a quote in which she sneeringly told off women like me. I don't recall exactly what she said, but I do remember that she didn't make any arguments, she just called me and women who agree with me a bunch of names - bigots, transphobes - and implied we are all uninformed and silly old fuddy-duddies who aren't nearly as educated, enlightened and experienced as she and her teenage and early-20-something friends and school mates.
Also, women with my POV are actually more numerous than you think. One of the reasons you and society in general are not aware of this is that for a number of years now, we have not been able to get published or have our views aired in the mainstream press - and we have been banned from nearly all social media.
I only post on LRC because it's one of the few online forums which allows posters of both sexes to question and put forward arguments against the authoritarian, anti-woman, male supremacist, bullying, reality-denying agenda that's being pushed today in the name of "trans rights."
But even if other women didn't share my views, I still would hold them. I don't mind being unpopular. Over many years - decades, in fact - I've deeply probed, carefully considered and taken full and fair measure of what is being demanded and peddled in the name of "trans rights" - and I have concluded that it's a very bad deal for girls and women that means we must give up many of the gains and rights we've obtained since the mid-20th century that generations of women fought tooth and nail for.
If standing up for the rights, dignity and safety of girls and women is "trans bashing" like you say, then so be it. That just underscores that there are genuine conflicts between women's rights and so-called "trans rights."
No one is denying male-on-male violence. What women like me are saying is the violence that some males "viewed as feminine or insufficiently masculine" experience at the hands of other males is not the problem of female people to solve.
We are also saying that the solution to the male-on-male violence that some males experience - not just due to them being "feminine or insufficiently masculine" but because of factors like being very young or very old, being very short and skinny, being disabled or infirm - is not to put girls and women at risk by opening up all female-only "safe spaces" to all and any males who want in regardless of how those males say they "identify" and no matter what kind of "gender expression" they have.
Like many other mothers of male children, the friend of many gay men, and someone who knows many disabled and frail men, I am fully aware of the vulnerabilities of many males to violence, harassment, bullying and sexual assault by other males. I know and have known many baby boys, young boys and slender, beautiful pubescent boys who are vulnerable to male abuse and sexual predation; many weak old men; quite a few men who rely on wheelchairs, canes, walkers and sight aids; and many gay guys who have been bullied, assaulted and gay bashed, along with many gay male friends and colleagues who died horribly of AIDS in the 80s and 90s....But never before in history did any group of adult and adolescent males, no matter how vulnerable they might havre been to abuse by other males, demand the right to use ladies' loos, locker rooms, rape refuges, shelters and such in order to protect themselves from being picked on and preyed on by other males.
Historically, the only males allowed in female "safe spaces" have been baby and young boys with their mums or female carers. I used to take my little brother and later on my own son and nephews into ladies' loos, locker rooms, changing rooms and even gym showers with me when they were babies and very little boys. But the custom and stated rule in such female spaces has always been that once boys turn 7 or 8, it's no longer appropriate or permissible for them to use those spaces, not even when accompanied, watched over and kept in line by their mums or other female carers. (Though IME, most boys start wanting to use the men's and boys' facilities at 5 and 6.)
Why is it so difficult for guys like you to accept that girls and women don't want to be forced to get undressed and to attend to our intimate bodily needs like menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, leaky lactating breasts, menopausal flooding with males watching us as we disrobe, listening in from the next stall or outside the flimsy door with the wide cracks as we use the toilet, or leering at us as we stand at the sinks washing blood from our hands, skirts or trousers and milk stains from our tops?
Why is is so difficult for guys to accept that girls and women don't want to share communal toilets with guys because guys spray stinky-smelling male pee all over the toilet seats and floors, forcing us to step in it and either to sit in it or spend time cleaning off the seats? And because some guys jerk off in toilets at work and school, and other guy like to rummage through the sanitary bins where we've left used pads and tampons?
I am not dismissing the experiences of males who identify as trans. I am simply saying they are not identical to or even substantially the same as or similar to female people's experiences.
When trans-identified males are threatened or assaulted by other males, they still have a much better chance of fighting off the attacker or getting away because they have male strength, speed, size, explosiveness, lung capacity, bone sturdiness and so on. When males attack and sexually assault females, we are much more vulnerable to serious injury than males who experience such assaults are - broken bones; hematomas; concussion; TBI; unconsciousness; internal damage to the vagina, reproductive tract and anus; HIV and STI transmission; and death.
Plus, girls and women can and do get pregnant when raped - which adds layers to our trauma that trans-identified males do not experience and most cannot imagine and never ever give a moment's thought to.
Your continual insistence that male trans-identified people and female people are all in the same boat and there is no appreciable difference between us, our levels of risk or our life experiences is what Gavin DeBecker dubbed "forced teaming.As I've mentioned to you before, forced teaming is classic tactic of abusers and male sex predators.
I think there's actually much more evidence that male trans activists like you continually dismiss the experience of female people than there's evidence that women like me are dismissing the experience of trans-identified males.
Because this is LRC, most of the people arguing against your pov are men, and you use that as a rhetorical cudgel. “Back of blokes, how dare you have an opinion on this topic.” I get it, men should take a backseat in this debate. However, you should acknowledge that many biological females do not share your point of view. I posted one such piece, but I could find and post many more from female feminist activists that support trans rights. I can’t prove this to you, but I suspect more biological males share your view than biological females about trans rights. The very same men that are more than happy to deprive you of reproductive freedom, pay you less for equal work, deprive you of needed family and childcare support, couldn’t care less about rape culture or women’s athletics, etc are your most vociferous allies when it comes to trans bashing. Don’t you find this the least bit odd?
Has it occurred to you that RunRagged isn't trans bashing--that she's angry about the gradual dismantling of women's rights and protections under the banner of trans inclusion?
I'm sure you can point to a lot of public-facing feminists who don't see the harm in gender ideology, but I can tell you that women (many in feminist and progressive spaces) are whispering to one another about it on a regular basis. Most people think these policies are insane, but they're too afraid to say so in public.
For those who would like a different perspective on whether or not trans women should be excluded from women’s “safe spaces,” I would encourage you all to read this piece by Janey Starling, a leading domestic violence expert in the UK. This is an issue separate from participation in athletics, but an important one.
This article makes a better case for "Why Trans Women Do Not Belong in Men's Space" than a case for "Why Trans Women Belong in Women's Space."
So let's find some compromise. Trans women should be given their own space separate from both cis men and cis women. And if trans men also want space of their own, they should get one as well.
Who would be against this idea and why?
Who would be against it? Ignoring the crusty old arch-conservative types who just hate everything new because they are human dinosaurs, the leading candidates would probably be, ironically, transwomen and their allies. We wouldn't have the common insistence that "transwomen are women!" if transwomen would be happy to just be left alone to do their thing in their own bathrooms, their own sports leagues, and so on. I'd bet at least a lot of transwomen would say the only thing they'll accept is full integration into female spaces, and that having a separate transwomen's restroom, for example, would be oppressive because it would be treating them as different from women. Of course, the logical problems with that proposition are obvious to most people. If I'm wrong about this and transwomen actually would be fine with their own things rather than taking women-only things, I'll admit it, because I'd really like to be wrong about it, but this is what I suspect.
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